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Helicopter for Yacht Operations?


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#21 Witch

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 21:01

Might a Schweizer 333 work for you? Turbine, small disk, low operating cost... Here's the website:
http://www.sacusa.co...3_technical.asp

Might be an option.

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#22 CFIISanDiego

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 21:22

How much weight do you need to carry and how many people? A R44, three passenger seats, can take about 1000lbs of payload. Or about 600 lbs of people and bags with full tanks of fuel. I only ask because of the low cost of operation. Very reliable aircraft as well. They make a Clipper model for off shore operations. Something to look into perhaps. Good luck.
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#23 Kc135Delta

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 00:01

The r44's T bar scares the h#ll out of me. It is about as un natural as it gets.


I would like to carry 4-5 pax at times but not many bags. On the other hand I found this thing; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL_SW-4 anyone know anything about it?

thanks, drew

#24 Heli-Ops

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 17:10

Drew - Check your PM's.
Heli Ops Intl - The Worlds Leading Civil Helicopter Industry Trade Publication - www.heliopsmag.com

#25 Krusty

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 20:23

KC 135

This is free advice! I have been flying operations utility for the better part of 20 years, hold a IFR NIGHT unrestricted ATPL. Took my initial training on a 47 because that was all there was. To me it sounds that you first priority is safety for the VIP's on board the helo. SO to begin with the AS355 has a blades that can be folded/ removed ( 2 pins per blade) . Even with a twin the second engine is only going to fly you to the crash site on a cold day straight and level so POP-out floats are a good idea, and who the hell is going to have the time to put on a little yellow plastic life jacket from 500 ASL when the sh*t hits the fan. Yes the regs are one thing but it seems to me that you are looking for safety, when I bucket even form a 212 I always wear a Mustang jacket. They only cost 100$ a pop. Forget about the R44 absolute piece of junk. Just had a friend that piled one in after leaving the factory and the blades delaminated. You need a turnine twin for the VIP's.

PM me is you need guidance.

Fly safe

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#26 Rob Lyman

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 12:41

I have landed on a few "yachts" in my previous career. I think the smallest one was 134', but it had the flight deck typical of the 453' SHIPS I landed on.

Posted Image

The important things to consider are:

1)Dimensions..obviously you need to match the aircraft weight, length, width and height dimensions with the yacht you land on. Unfortunately optimal placement of the flight deck for obstacle clearance usually contradicts the optimal placement for sea keeping ability. You need to have an extra margin of error if you plan to land and take off while underway or pivoting at anchor.

2) You need a VERY GOOD landing gear and deck compatability. Helicopters, being top heavy, are susceptable to sliding off the deck and/or tipping over. You should have easily available tiedown positions on the deck and on the aircraft so that the aircraft can be tied down by ground crew before shutting down. The aircraft must not have adverse ground resonance issues while being tied down. The gear/skids and deck must be able to absorb the punishment of firm landings.

3) What are your operating limitations going to be? What ship pitch, roll and yaw limits will you land under? Be sure that they are WELL within the aircrafts dynamic roll over and static roll over limitations. What about weather and lighting limitations? Is night lighting required? If you plan to land while underway or at anchor at night you need to consider approach and lineup lights. You can't believe how lights can be confusing in pitch dark landings on aboard a ship.

EDIT: Krusty has the right attitude. SAFETY. We flew off the back of ships all of the time at night but still did not consider it safe to take pax at night. It had to be approved at the region commander's level. It was a forgone conclusion that if the aircraft went in the drink at night, the pax would NOT survive, but the aircrew, with recurrent helo dunker training, would have a better than 50% chance.

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#27 Kc135Delta

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Posted 17 October 2006 - 16:40

Thanks for the valuable info. I'm totally reconsidering the whole idea. I talked to a post Ch-53 pilot a day ago and he was stationed on one of those pocket carriers with just helio's and jump jets. Needless to say I don't think I want to try it.

Not just yet anyways. Maybe after some more time building.

#28 Krusty

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Posted 18 October 2006 - 01:59

Good to you KC135 for reconsidering. Just remember forums like this are a place for those with experience to transmill that knowledge. Personally I have done no Large ship ( 500 ft +)board landings but have landed on many logging barges from a utility standpoint, which is kinda the same. You need a twin on pop outs with mustang jackets for all. ( pull to inlfate ) not the ones that go off with water contact cause folks can get trapped in the cabin. Like I said if you need advice PM me and I will do I waht I can to steer you right.

Kindest Regards

Krusty



Rob. L is also an great source of info.

Fly Safe KC 135

#29 Tender Rat

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 11:10

Hello, again.

I'm in a search for the best light helicopter suited for yacht operations, I need a helicopter to operate off a 130-140' expedition yacht which is still in the design phase. I want to know what pilots prefer helicopter wise and landing pad config.

helicopter wise, we are looking at light turbine (preferably twin turbine). We were considering the Long jetbox (206 long ranger) becuase it only has a 2 bladed rotor head which allows for much easier storage becuase the helicopter will be kept in a hangar. So folding rotorheads or twin bladed is a must. We were also considering the AS355 becuase of it's twin engine qualities. But we prefer the seating arangment of the long ranger due to the fact that it makes deboarding and loading much easier for shuttling large amount of pax to/from the yacht.

any input is appriciated from helipad/hangar design to helicopter choice.

the single engine 206L over water is a scary thought in my mind, even knowing the reliability of turbines.
thanks, drew



#30 Tender Rat

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 11:26

Hello, again.

I'm in a search for the best light helicopter suited for yacht operations, I need a helicopter to operate off a 130-140' expedition yacht which is still in the design phase. I want to know what pilots prefer helicopter wise and landing pad config.

helicopter wise, we are looking at light turbine (preferably twin turbine). We were considering the Long jetbox (206 long ranger) becuase it only has a 2 bladed rotor head which allows for much easier storage becuase the helicopter will be kept in a hangar. So folding rotorheads or twin bladed is a must. We were also considering the AS355 becuase of it's twin engine qualities. But we prefer the seating arangment of the long ranger due to the fact that it makes deboarding and loading much easier for shuttling large amount of pax to/from the yacht.

any input is appriciated from helipad/hangar design to helicopter choice.

the single engine 206L over water is a scary thought in my mind, even knowing the reliability of turbines.
thanks, drew



#31 EnglishBob

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 10:24

I'm not a helicopter pilot (as yet) but I am a naval architect for a megayacht builder in the UK.
The last yacht we sent out into the world has a Bell 407 onboard, but she is 253' long and cost well over $100million!

Looking at it from the designers point of view, helicopters on anything less than 160' are very tough and even that will be for daylight use and as a touch and go pad, not for a permanently embarked helicopter. We have a 180' yacht in the yard at the moment with a pad for an EC120, and even that is a really tight squeeze! So much so that a part of the superstructure has to move on tracks to accomodate a landing.
The major reasons that its a pain in the a$$ being that the extra hoops that the designer has to jump through to incorporate infrastructure to comply with the MCA, Lloyds Register and the Flag Authority to store aviation fuel and provide sufficient fire fighting capability is quite a major undertaking.

Most of these issues are not at the forefront of the mind of the designer when the initial sketches are done. And helipads are shown as space 'set aside' with no real facilities or thought (often the uppermost sundeck with an H inlaid in the teak decking!). Owners (or their reps) are then often surprised when we as the detail and structural design folk say that things that are on the initial 'pretty picture' that the owner got from the stylist require a lot of redesign or just aren't going to work (This applies to a LOT of areas on a yacht not just helipads!)

One should not underestimate the effect that the additional weight of the helicopter and the generated loads will have on the required structure in the deck beneath, or the effect that that weight has on the stability of the vessel.
Adding weight at height will have the effect of raising the CG, albeit just a little, and most yachts I have worked with are built close to the limits as it is.

On our current project the yacht is some 270', but still the pad is only 26' wide (another touch and go). On the smallest yachts, there is barely enough room for the skids and fuselage and the tail boom sticks way out over thin air. It would be really hard to check over the tail rotor preflight!

Having said all that, (and I do seem to have gone on for a long time, sorry about that) some of the yachts with helipads are pretty impressive.
One of Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen's yachts, the expedition yacht 'Octopus', has a helipad and hangar space for S76s.
Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich's yacht Pelorus has 3 helipads (upper aft, upper forward and foredeck). I think one of his yachts(!) even has a concealed hangar in the foredeck to hold a small heli with folded rotors.

But you can do that when you spend $200million on one of your yachts...

#32 Rob Lyman

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 13:05

Looking at it from the designers point of view, helicopters on anything less than 160' are very tough and even that will be for daylight use and as a touch and go pad, not for a permanently embarked helicopter. We have a 180' yacht in the yard at the moment with a pad for an EC120, and even that is a really tight squeeze! So much so that a part of the superstructure has to move on tracks to accomodate a landing.
The major reasons that its a pain in the a$$ being that the extra hoops that the designer has to jump through to incorporate infrastructure to comply with the MCA, Lloyds Register and the Flag Authority to store aviation fuel and provide sufficient fire fighting capability is quite a major undertaking.

Interesting and totally in agreement with my experience doing pre-deployment inspections of US Navy vessels for flight deck, hangar and training requirements. I did not get into the design of the systems, but did inspect them for compliance to US Navy regulations, which were VERY extensive, right down to the number of people who had to be qualified as rescue swimmers, date the deck was last painted, measurement of deck markings, etc...

It was tough telling a ship's captain he could not deploy with a helo if he did not TDY someone from another ship to his until he could get someone to swimmer school. I got many calls around my back to the admiral I worked for, but the regs always won out. It was VERY involved in the military and it makes sense that there should be some diligence on the civilian side.

MTP/ME/IP/IE/SP


#33 FauxZ

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 14:30

For what it's worth, I have a 3.5mb power point presentation of Paul Allen's Octopus. It's mostly just slides of different pictures and what not, but it does contain some great shots of the heli pads and hanger. Do we have a files section here? I know we have the gallery and video section. I'll gladly post it if we have a location for it.

#34 wheatbix

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 17:28

If you email it to me FauxZ i can host it

#35 FauxZ

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 17:57

If you email it to me FauxZ i can host it


PM sent.

#36 wheatbix

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 19:55

Thanks FauxZ

The powerpoint presentation on the Octopus is available for download here

#37 Helilog56

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 19:49

:) No, no, no......you all have it wrong. Here is our aircraft on our "yacht" :rolleyes:

Will sell cheap :lol:

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#38 wheatbix

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 04:24

quite the vintage yacht you've got there helilog! :P

#39 Kc135Delta

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 22:44

that's what you use to pick up the barge and move it from lake to lake right? :P

#40 spw1177

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 23:23

Completely off topic.

KC135D, NKAWTG

Cheers




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