177 replies to this topic

[brushfire21]

I ran acrossed this article on Pprune and then looked it up on AVWEB. I am hoping Marpat is working through this wrinkle somehow, I am hoping the best of luck to Marpat and other owners.

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AVweb's Friday Podcast: Alouette Helicopters Declared Illegal Immigrants by the FAA

When Joe Altizer's employer (Marpat Aviation of Logan, West Virginia) bought three French-built Alouette helicopters, they'd all been flying previously in the U.S. All three came certified in the standard category and with current airworthiness certificates. A couple of weeks ago, FAA inspectors, accompanied by state troopers, visited Altizer's hangar and grounded the helicopters, resulting in the layoff of two pilots and a very uncertain future for the company.


The FAA says the absence of a piece of paperwork called a Certificate of Airworthiness for Export, which should have been with the aircraft when they were originally certified in the U.S., means they aren't eligible for that certification, and inspectors are tracking down all the Alouettes in the U.S. to possibly ground them as well. What's frustrating Altizer and other Alouette operators is the FAA doesn't seem to have a solution for a bureaucratic error of their own making and it's the current aircraft owners who are paying the price. We've contacted the FAA and expect a response from them shortly, but, in the meantime, AVweb's Russ Niles talked with Altizer about the unusual situation and the burden it's placing on unsuspecting Alouette owners.

Link: http://www.avweb.com...t/195668-1.html

[bossman]

brushfire,
Thanks for the support. We are trying to assist the FAA is solving their paperwork issue. Not much luck so far. Supposed to have a meeting with AFS1 Ballough on the 31st. of July. We'll see what happens. We've kind of caught the first wave assault on this thing because we advertise and use these aircraft everyday. We could have probably laid back in the bushes and prolonged this battle but our local FSDO stopped letting our examiner do check rides for our students. So we started complaining loudly and got smacked down by Ft. Worth on a 44709 inspection. No safety of flight issues, just one piece of paper. We did not certify these aircraft. The piece of paper they want is not a required part of the aircraft logbooks. We do not have access to certifying documents. These aircraft have been flying for over 25 years in the USA without the paper. The jist of the matter is that instead of an Export Certificate of Airworthiness the French issued a Letter of Attestation. These Letters of Attestation have been the accepted paper for 30 years and now someone in Ft. Worth is saying that they should not have been accepted. We have been in contact with the French DGAC since learning of this in December of 06. They say that they cannot issue an Export C of A because the aircraft are already in the USA and registered and certified in Normal category. The French told the FAA they would give them a letter worded anyway they wanted to help clear up this matter. The FAA responded that it had to be an Export C of A or nothing. So you see, the Alouettes owners in the USA are being placed in an impossible position. The paper does not exist and can't be had. We're trying to work through this. Maybe we can survive.
bossman

[apentico]

Boy I hope it all works out for you. Keep us apprised of the situation some of us bigger boys need you. Thanks bossman you are a stud.

[500pilot]

We're the FAA. We're not happy till your not happy. What a joke the FAA is sometimes. Is this all allouette's or just your in particular? Good luck on getting throught this bossman.

Edited by 500pilot, 21 July 2007 - 06:17.

[Superman]

Kinda shoots down the FAA’s “We’re here to Help” Image hugh. What a bunch of BS.

Good Luck
Clark

[bossman]

We're the FAA. We're not happy till your not happy. What a joke the FAA is sometimes. Is this all allouette's or just your in particular? Good luck on getting throught this bossman.

The entire Alouette series, from the 3130 to Llamas.

[bossman]

What about other French made helicopters like the older A-star's? (I assume that any new A-star would've been built here in the U.S. and therefore not bound by this export certificate) What papers do they come with that allow them to fly in country and if those papers work for those helicopter why would it not work for you?

The difference is that the Alouettes mostly came out of military and not civilian life. Even though the Letters of Attestation state that there was only one assembly line and all Alouettes were produced exactly the same, conforming to the US type Certificate.

[brushfire21]

More Gov't Paperwork and Major Headaches are coming down the pipe line is sounds like. Wonder if contacting some local Senators/Reps would help? This is hurting Bossmans and others with similiar aircraft, and these business's have have alot of money tied up over a piece of paper, and something that should have been grandfathered in as the FAA originally accepted it. Please keep us updated as none of want to see legitimate business's getting handcuffed by paper pushers 30 years late to the game.

[500E]

Here is the pprune forum
http://www.pprune.or...ead.php?t=28485.

What a No. of people are saying is if the machines were Mil they were not nesacerily maintaned to the same speck as a civy ship.
What a mess, how come this has now reared its head,reading pprune there appears to have been a problem for some years and FAA did nothing till 2004, see Cyclic Hotlines post on pprune.
Hope you get some serious help bossman.

[ADRidge]

Talk about your catch-22. That's a rough situation to be in, bossman. Sounds bleak, but I really hope you can get this sorted out.

[HelliBoy]

This article from Rotor & Wing a couple months ago apparently saw this coming. It explains the situation pretty clearly; if such a thing can ever be said about analysis of FAA bureaucratic garbage

[bossman]

Here is the pprune forum
http://www.pprune.or...ead.php?t=28485.

What a No. of people are saying is if the machines were Mil they were not nesacerily maintaned to the same speck as a civy ship.
What a mess, how come this has now reared its head,reading pprune there appears to have been a problem for some years and FAA did nothing till 2004, see Cyclic Hotlines post on pprune.
Hope you get some serious help bossman.

We have been in contact with the French and German military commands that use these machines. They both told us that they outsource most of their maintenance to Eurocopter vendors. They do not do depot type maintenance. Their POH is the same that civilian versions use. Yes, the FAA did realize that the machines do not and cannot acquire the export C of A. They continued to certify these machines, knowing that they did not have the paperwork, and instead had a Letter of Attestation. This is a problem of the FAA's own creation. It became an accepted practice and a common practice. We continue the battle.
bossman

[Scott83]

Considering the FAA has created this terrible situation, they need to find a cure.

Whether they decide to pull the certs away from the Allouette series or not, they need to take care of the businesses operating them. Some of the outfits, like Marpat are not large operators and taking away their fleet of helicopters can easily put them
out of business. The value of the Alouette is going to crash.

Mike, have they discussed any solutions?


I see a lawsuit.



Scott

[pokey]

I see a lawsuit.

sue the FAA?

good luck,,,, may as well sue the irs too !

[500E]

bossman
The loss of revenue must be hurting real bad hope you get some satisfaction real soon.
I see that you and others are going to talk to Marion Blakey and other top officials at FAA, the other bad bit is that, the person who got it wrong in the first place is either long gone, or covered better than any witness protection program, and the end user of the mess up is left holding the baby.
Hope there is someone in the FAA with the B***s to stand up and say I screwed up "now how do we sort it out".

[bossman]

Considering the FAA has created this terrible situation, they need to find a cure.

Whether they decide to pull the certs away from the Allouette series or not, they need to take care of the businesses operating them. Some of the outfits, like Marpat are not large operators and taking away their fleet of helicopters can easily put them
out of business. The value of the Alouette is going to crash.

Mike, have they discussed any solutions?
I see a lawsuit.
Scott

The FAA does not discuss solutions. They want them all in experimental. The one owner that has given in and surrendered his normal for an experimental has since had the experimental pulled for no approved maintenance program. He got screwed big time. Now he has a machine that has no certificate of any kind and no hope of ever being able to acquire one. He's dead in the water.
bossman

[bossman]

bossman
The loss of revenue must be hurting real bad hope you get some satisfaction real soon.
I see that you and others are going to talk to Marion Blakey and other top officials at FAA, the other bad bit is that, the person who got it wrong in the first place is either long gone, or covered better than any witness protection program, and the end user of the mess up is left holding the baby.
Hope there is someone in the FAA with the B***s to stand up and say I screwed up "now how do we sort it out".

Thanks 500E,
We are hurting pretty bad. Loomis at Ft. Worth said the Alouette situation was of NO ECONOMIC IMPACT. It sure has impacted us. The FAA has 160 of these machines to look at and has made the brag that there will only be a handful flying when they are done. They called us on a Tuesday and informed us they would be arriveing on Friday for the 44709 conformity inspection. They arrived with 3 State Troopers in tow. They knew the outcome before they ever looked at our helicopters. If any Alouette owners are reading this that I have not spoken with, DO NOT SUBMIT to the 44709 inspection. You can't clear up the paper if you do not have an Export C of A. If you do not submit they have to go through legal and try emergency revocation. You at least will get a day in court going this route. We have no recourse.
bossman

[500pilot]

Bossman, does this mean that there is no hope in your aircraft being able to fly again with a standard aw cert? Whats your next course of action with this?

[bossman]

Bossman, does this mean that there is no hope in your aircraft being able to fly again with a standard aw cert? Whats your next course of action with this?

We have a face to face scheduled in DC with AFS1 Bellough. It's only due to a congressional inquiry by our Senators and Congressmen. We have been trying to get him to set down with us for awhile. Until we got the Senators involved he would not even return our phone calls. We continue the fight. We had the French and Germans lined up to come over and inspect these aircraft for conformity (at our expense), but the FAA said they would accept nothing but an Export C of A. The French DGAC cannot issue this paper because the aircraft are already in the US and certified in normal category. We have taken our offer to bring the French over, off the table. Our days of trying to help the FAA fix a problem that they allowed to happen for 30 years is over. We want a grandfather clause. They can inspect for safety of flight and unapproved parts, if they want to, but the paper they want does not exist.
bossman