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269A


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#1 adam32

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 12:30

I found a 269A, do they require a lot of maintenance to keep them going? I know it will be more then a r22, but how much more?

Thanks

#2 Galadrium

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 13:40

Its really hard to make generalizations about maintenance costs of small piston helicopters. It really largely depends on how well the aircraft was previously maintained. Be sure to do an extensive prebuy with helicopter A&P mechanics that are familiar with these types of aircraft.

Don't fall for the myth that the R22 is so easy and cheap to maintain. They usually are, but if they've had shoddy maintenance in the past, they can be huge maintenance hogs. Plus, when you consider that every 12 or or 2200 hours (which ever comes first) the Robinson gets a new airframe, they aren't that cheap on maintenance.

It really all depends on what you plan to do with this helicopter, and how much you plan to fly it. I've operated older Hughes, and currently a new Schweizer CBI. If you have any questions feel free to PM me here too. I could write a small book on operating older 269s.

Good luck.
As the rotor turns.

#3 apiaguy

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 14:28

I agree with Galadrium..

When looking at a 269A you really need a mechanic that has experience with the early 269's (A's, B's and TH-55's).
You're looking to see if the aircraft has been upgraded in a number of areas that is "current" to what is being manufactured. Beyond that component times and maintenance/flight frequency is important. If the thing has never been flown but 20 hours a year and never been to a service center or had service bulletins complied with thru the years the aircraft may require significant periodic maintenance that will cost you.
If you're looking at an early 269 that has 1145's be advised you will need a blade inspection every 50 hours and you're likely to not have more than 200-400 hours left on the blades. Also the 1145's will mean you have hydraulic dampers (not that bad, but the newer elastomeric dampers are more reliable and require less maintenance.) The 1145 blade has not been produced for nearly 30 years and only had a service life of 1366 hours... so 1145's are antique and they are a fragile blade.
The main transmissions have had lots of upgrades thru the years and the older ones will have shorter overhaul and more inspections before they need major upgrade costs.
The tail boom's have had upgrades to the saddle fittings and the older ones will have a 50 hours inspection that will cost $$ and have a much shorter life limit.
Don't even consider a 269 that has a high speed tail rotor.... that said, I don't think there are any flyable out there nowadays. The tail rotor blades have been upgraded with internal corrosion treatments that don't require a yearly x-ray inspection. The older blades are fine... just cost a little more at annual time.
Belt drive's have had major upgrades to bearing size/life limit. Upgraded idler pulley bracket.
All that said... You're ultimate 269A (or B) will have:
1190 main rotor blades with elastomeric dampers
5175-9 main rotor transmission
2320-9 tail boom (or bsc with -11 saddle)
6035-21 tail rotor blades
5050-78 upper belt drive bearings
5050-74 idler bearings
5050-80 (or 85) lower bearings
fuel injection
electric clutch is a personal preference
idler tensioner upgraded.
electric trim


hmmm, will think of more

Edited by apiaguy, 13 April 2008 - 14:32.


#4 adam32

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 15:25

Thanks guys, this is the one I found:

http://www.barnstorm...l.php?ID=236057

It does have the 1145 blades... <_<

#5 apiaguy

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 16:00

It is a real oldie... 12 volt electrical... original 269A.... not a military th-55 certified.
That doesn't mean much.. it all depends on how it has been upgraded as listed above....
Looks like carburated engine. The early 269A's had a lower gross weight compared to the 269A/TH-55's... 1600 vs 1670. And that is only after upgrading some landing gear components, on the early early models it was 1550.
Don't ya love how you get a second main blade with "no documentation".
Find a TH-55A that has a standard airworthiness certificate. You'll be much happier.

#6 adam32

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Posted 13 April 2008 - 16:08

It has a 2320 tailboom, but thats it.

#7 Galadrium

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 08:09

It also depends on how long you plan to keep it, and how many hours you plan on using it per year.

Schweizer really isn't that great with product support on the A and B models. Things like MR and TR blades are not things you want to have time out on you because they can be difficult to obtain.

I think Boatfixerguy said it in another thread, but you should take a serious look at Enstrom if you are looking for a personal ship. Many advantages like way more interior room than a R22 or 269. Many parts such as MR blades are on condition, and have no time life. But like anything... DO A PREBUY. I've seen people get ripped off and spend 10s of thousands of dollars fixing things that would have easily been caught by a competent helicopter A&P. A good prebuy is the best money you will ever spend in helicopters.
As the rotor turns.

#8 BOATFIXERGUY

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:58

Galadrium nailed it.... for a personal ship (or commercial bird for that matter), you can't go wrong with an enstrom. The maintnance is really low on a personal ship as long as you fly it a few hours a month to keep it lubed up...Don't let it sit around. You can get you real world DOC's between $125 - $150 hour for a 280 (not including fuel or insurance). Very few AD's. Fuel burn is 9 - 13.5 GPH.

For a flight school, it will cost more than a 22 or 300/269 in the long run, but you can't beat it's safety record or the way it flies. And to me, that's more important.

A good used one will cost around $125k with 1/2 life left. It will fly at high density altitude, and here's the best part: IT'S EXTREMELY SAFE.

Enstrom is the best kept secret in helicopters.
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#9 Galadrium

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 17:42

If you want to do an Enstrom on a budget, there are still plenty of F-28As around. Around here they go for anywhere between $60 and $80K for a half time or better A model. They fly exactly like the turbocharged models, with a bit less power of course. Unless you're working it in high DA situations, an A model is a very adequate helicopter.
As the rotor turns.

#10 rick1128

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 18:37

If you want to do an Enstrom on a budget, there are still plenty of F-28As around. Around here they go for anywhere between $60 and $80K for a half time or better A model. They fly exactly like the turbocharged models, with a bit less power of course. Unless you're working it in high DA situations, an A model is a very adequate helicopter.


It really depends on the A model. With just high temps it can be a bear to operate and easy to get on the back side of the power curve. The A model I flew in Houston was during the month of July was an instrument ship and a heavy weight instructor. Everything was at the top of the green to do everything. You will need to keep in mind what you are going to do with it and where. It is comfortable with lots of room and a high inertia rotor system.

#11 rick1128

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 18:37

If you want to do an Enstrom on a budget, there are still plenty of F-28As around. Around here they go for anywhere between $60 and $80K for a half time or better A model. They fly exactly like the turbocharged models, with a bit less power of course. Unless you're working it in high DA situations, an A model is a very adequate helicopter.


It really depends on the A model. With just high temps it can be a bear to operate and easy to get on the back side of the power curve. The A model I flew in Houston was during the month of July was an instrument ship and a heavy weight instructor. Everything was at the top of the green to do everything. You will need to keep in mind what you are going to do with it and where. It is comfortable with lots of room and a high inertia rotor system.

#12 adam32

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 21:42

It also depends on how long you plan to keep it, and how many hours you plan on using it per year.

Schweizer really isn't that great with product support on the A and B models. Things like MR and TR blades are not things you want to have time out on you because they can be difficult to obtain.

I think Boatfixerguy said it in another thread, but you should take a serious look at Enstrom if you are looking for a personal ship. Many advantages like way more interior room than a R22 or 269. Many parts such as MR blades are on condition, and have no time life. But like anything... DO A PREBUY. I've seen people get ripped off and spend 10s of thousands of dollars fixing things that would have easily been caught by a competent helicopter A&P. A good prebuy is the best money you will ever spend in helicopters.



I will probably only keep it for 150-200hrs, just long enough to get through my Com/CFI. Then either sell it, or if I have enough business, start instructing in it.

#13 rick1128

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 11:30

I will probably only keep it for 150-200hrs, just long enough to get through my Com/CFI. Then either sell it, or if I have enough business, start instructing in it.


Depending on where you are in California, I personally would have some 2nd, 3rd and 4th thoughts about a Enstrom 28A. I wouldn't use it in the LA Basin at all. It really doesn't have the power for the temps and altitudes. I would strongly suggest that you get a flight or two in one before you make that kind of decision.

#14 adam32

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 16:38

Depending on where you are in California, I personally would have some 2nd, 3rd and 4th thoughts about a Enstrom 28A. I wouldn't use it in the LA Basin at all. It really doesn't have the power for the temps and altitudes. I would strongly suggest that you get a flight or two in one before you make that kind of decision.


I'm up here by Sonora, about 2100ft and summer temps over 100. So yeah, I would think a 28A might have a tough time up here. Right now I am really leaning toward the Hiller 12C-Turbo.

#15 rick1128

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 17:36

I'm up here by Sonora, about 2100ft and summer temps over 100. So yeah, I would think a 28A might have a tough time up here. Right now I am really leaning toward the Hiller 12C-Turbo.


I am familiar with the area. The only issue I have with the Hiller is support. There is some but it can be expensive. Also there is only one engine shop in the US that regularly overhauls the VO engines. Again expensive. I do not have any personal experience with the Hiller or turbo charged Bells, but I have been told they are easy to overboost. And that can get very expensive. If you watch the weight and fuel load, the normally aspirated 47's or Hillers will do OK in your area. As will the 300. If you are considering turbo charging, you might want to look at Enstrom 28C's and F's there are a few around.




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