Airplane Add-on

[slick1537]

Hey guys was looking around at the FARs trying to figure out what you need to do to add-on an airplane category to your pilot certificate. I am kind of confused, can you hold a rotorcraft certificate at the commercial level and an airplane certificate at the private level? I suppose if you can then the rest of the details are laid out in 61.109.

 

However this then brings up the debate of how much helicopter time you can credit. It seems like it would be none, since the 40 hours listed in 61.109(a) must be in the training areas for airplane stuff. Anyone have some insight on this subject? Perhaps it is an issue that varies by which FISDO you ask?

[JETTSET99]

Hi Not only did I add on my fix wing I also did it in a High performance TB-20 you need about 15 hours, less if you do it in a 172!

[SkidKid]

If the required time or training is stated as Aircraft, then it counts as either rotor or Fixed wing. Those items specifically stated as being conducted in an airplane are additional requirements for the add on.

 

Yes, you can add on the commercial airplane with the same checkride.

 

With the distance requirements for cross country being greater in an airplane, you might have to do those, ask your CFI. Endorsements are required.

 

See Part 61.63:

 

( Additional aircraft category rating. A person who applies to add a category rating to a pilot certificate:

 

(1) Must complete the training and have the applicable aeronautical experience.

 

(2) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

 

(3) Must pass the practical test.

 

(4) Need not take an additional knowledge test if the person holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

 

© Additional aircraft class rating. A person who applies for an additional class rating on a pilot certificate:

 

(1) Must have a logbook or training record endorsement from an authorized instructor attesting that the person was found competent in the appropriate aeronautical knowledge areas and proficient in the appropriate areas of operation.

 

(2) Must pass the practical test.

 

(3) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought; unless, the person only holds a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating, then that person must receive the specified training time requirements and possess the appropriate aeronautical experience.

 

 

Enjoy the FW flying. It is good, and you will find that you will do well with it, just be sure to keep your speed up on final!!

[Pohi]

61.109

40 Hours flight time <----- Helo time counts as flight time

20 Hours training in areas of operation of 61.107((1) <----- Airplane training

10 Hours solo in areas of operation of 61.107((1) <----- Airplane training

 

So, to answer your question... what you save is 10 hours of flight time.

 

Private SEL add on does not save that much flight time, the commercial SEL add on is where you really save a bunch.

[Pohi]

61. 107 ( b ) ( 1 )

Edited December 22, 2009 by Pohi

[rick1128]

61.109

40 Hours flight time <----- Helo time counts as flight time

20 Hours training in areas of operation of 61.107((1) <----- Airplane training

10 Hours solo in areas of operation of 61.107((1) <----- Airplane training

 

So, to answer your question... what you save is 10 hours of flight time.

 

Private SEL add on does not save that much flight time, the commercial SEL add on is where you really save a bunch.

 

Just keep in mind that if you do not have the appropriate instrument rating, your COMM FW will be restricted. However, the instrument add-on is only 15 hours in Category. If you do not already have an instrument rating, you can do 15 hours in each category and 10 or so in a simulator and get the most bang for the buck. All you have to do is 2 checkrides.

[slick1537]

Anyone know what the cheapest plane to get your ratings in is? What price per hour?

[helonorth]

You could technically do it in 16 hours. Do the 3 hours: at night, under the hood, while on a 100 cross country, do 10 TO's and landings, all within 90 days of the ride. I would say 61.109(3) would have to be separate. Then your 10 hours of solo. But that's not going to happen. It took me about 35 hours, which seems to be about average. Find a Cessna 152 for training. Less than $100 an hour dual. You can buy a 150 for under $15,000.

Edited December 22, 2009 by helonorth

[Pohi]

You could technically do it in 16 hours. Do the 3 hours: at night, under the hood, while on a 100 cross country, do 10 TO's and landings, all within 90 days of the ride. I would say 61.109(3) would have to be separate. Then your 10 hours of solo.

 

Only in 16 hours if your examiner/DPE does not pay attention to the regs.

 

61. 107 ( b ) ( 1 ) is airplane category single engine class.

the 61. 107 ( b ) ( 3 ) rotorcraft category helicopter class time does not count, since the regs specifically state that the training must be under 61. 107 ( b ) ( 1 ).

 

Now... do all examiners/dpe pay attention? Of course not.

[JETTSET99]

helonorth is right

 

 

Unless things changed you dont need 30hrs! I was able to use my Heli time for the bulk of trainning I needed the long solo x-country and then just some time doing emergancy manuvers it was like 10 hours and 4 previous to the check ride ect I did my solo in a High performace so go figure that one with the regs...

Edited December 22, 2009 by JETTSET99

[Pohi]

Unfortunately, figuring things out in the regs is a pretty big part of what I do for a living.

 

The regs constantly change, but this particular one has not changed for quite a few years.

 

The regulations that I use are current as of December 17, 2009.

 

But, like I posted before, what is written is irrelevant if the DPE does not pay attention to what the regulations say either.

 

It does not matter anymore, but there used to be people getting their commercial certificate with only 10 hours total solo time instead of the 20 that the regulations require. Not correct, but it happened all of the time, just depends on the DPE.

[helonorth]

The DPE doesn't decide if you have the time. Oklahoma city does. The first part of the reg just says what rating you are applying for and how much total flight time you need. 1,2,3,4 and 5 tell you what training you need SPECFICALLY in the type of aircraft. If you are not a lawyer for the FAA in OKC, I would be careful about interpreting regs on your own. I could be wrong. Ask fltpro on JH.

[Pohi]

Read the regs.

 

It's pretty cut and dry.

 

And yes, my whole point about the DPE is that they are people also, and they can also be wrong.

 

Understanding how to read regs is a pretty big part of being a competent pilot.

 

Go ahead and call the FSDO at 1-866-835-5322, it will only take a few minutes. Then, if I am wrong be sure to tell me so.

 

There is a good chance I have no idea what I am talking about, I am not really even a pilot. I just watch Top Gun a lot. The FSDO or a lawyer (personal injury are the ones I talk to) will be able to give the correct answer.

[helonorth]

According to AFS-800 (the people that wrote part 61) you need 20 hours dual in catagory. Merry Christmas!

[R22139RJ]

§ 61.109 Aeronautical experience.

(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107((1) of this part,

 

I didn't pass the BAR but I did get my GED and I'm confused on what there is to interpret here.

[helonorth]

It seems simple enough, but it has been held for years, by some people, that you only needed

to meet the specific parts for the specific training. The twenty hours was already met with the previous rating.

I was taught that and I also taught it. Moot point as I never had a add on student ready in less than 40 hours. The FAA issued a clarification at some point. There are a lot of pilots that claim to have done add ons with much less than 30 hours.

[bossman]

20 hours for the add-on. Fixed wing or Rotor. That's for the private. We do it all the time.

[helonorth]

Bossman, 20 hours total or dual?

[Pohi]

Call any FSDO.

This is getting ridiculous.

 

I really cannot believe this has even gone this far.

[R22139RJ]

Call any FSDO.

This is getting ridiculous.

 

I really cannot believe this has even gone this far.

 

It's getting comical at this point that pilots can't understand the regulations when it CLEARLY states what is needed.

 

I'll be providing seminars for those who are having troubles with the regs. I will cover the areas that you are weak in and provide flow charts and pop up books to help those who are currently having trouble.

 

PM ME.

[helonorth]

Well...why do we assume you do not need 40 hours? It says 40 hours flight time. The next sentence says you need 20 hours with an instructor. It doesn't say in a helicopter, does it? It then says 10 hours solo in a helicopter. If you really read it, it's not so clear.

[Pohi]

It seems simple enough, but it has been held for years, by some people, that you only needed

to meet the specific parts for the specific training. The twenty hours was already met with the previous rating.

I was taught that and I also taught it. Moot point as I never had a add on student ready in less than 40 hours. The FAA issued a clarification at some point. There are a lot of pilots that claim to have done add ons with much less than 30 hours.

 

Yes, I believe those specific parts for the specific training could also be called 20 hours on how to fly a airplane for an airplane rating, and then 10 hours of solo for an airplane rating.

 

It's getting comical at this point that pilots can't understand the regulations when it CLEARLY states what is needed.

 

I'll be providing seminars for those who are having troubles with the regs. I will cover the areas that you are weak in and provide flow charts and pop up books to help those who are currently having trouble.

 

PM ME.

 

Sign me up then. I need to figure out wtf is going on here.

[Pohi]

Well...why do we assume you do not need 40 hours? It says 40 hours flight time. The next sentence says you need 20 hours with an instructor. It doesn't say in a helicopter, does it? It then says 10 hours solo in a helicopter. If you really read it, it's not so clear.

 

You do need 40 hours.

You need 40 hours of TOTAL flight time. Helicopter time counts, glider time counts, and lighter than air time would also count.

 

As for the second part of your question, let me put it this way.

 

If a person was to go to a gas station and ask for 30 gallons of gas and 1 quart of oil in their car, what would that person be expecting?

 

30 gallons of gas in buckets, balloons, and or poured on the ground and then the 1 quart of oil in their car?

 

No, the person is saying I want 30 gallons of gas in my car, and I want 1 quart of oil in my car.

 

Therefore, if a pilot needs 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in the airplane category with single engine class areas of operation.

 

So..... lets rewrite this sentence.

 

A person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor in the areas of operation listed in the airplane category with single engine class areas of operation and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in the areas of operation listed in the airplane category with single engine class areas of operation.

 

That's all I can say.

 

For any other info, I guess I may or may not see some of you at R22139RJ's seminar.

[bossman]

Bossman, 20 hours total or dual?

It will take about 10 hours to get soloed. Within that you can get pretty much all your dual out of the way, except for the 3 hours prep for the ride. That's not for you Robbie guys, SFAR 73 still applies for the Robbies. We do the add-on in the 1100 in 20 hours pretty much all the time. A great part of our business is fixed wing to helicopter. Actually, it is only 19 hours, but 20 is easier to say.

[bossman]

Pohi,

If you already have a fixed wing or a rotor wing license you have met pretty much most of the requirements for either license. That's why you do not have to take another written examination or do a lot of the cross county work. That being said, you still need a lot of ground to prepare for the oral examination and the check ride. Take my word for it, it is 20 hours for either add-on. We went through this with the CRW FSDO and took it all the way to DC Legal for the final opinion. You can get the required hours for an add-on in 20 hours. Again, that's for the private license.