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Inverted, what to do?


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This is the same company in WI. that pilot was killed from blade strike,and same one that lost a 47 from honeybee. I really feel bad for them, It's a verry good company, I have flown for them for 14 yrs. They are just having really bad luck.

Hear is what happend last fall.

When the season was over, one of the owners was flying one of the hel. to store it for the winter and had his dog with him, in a 47.

He saw someone he knew and buzzed them, then the dog went ape s#*t and somehow the cyclick come out of his hand or the dog did it or something and it went inverted! He got it back upright before he hit the ground but rpm was verry low and destroyed the hel. He was not hurt except for maby ego.

I ask him what he did when he was upside down and he said he pulled pitch, he said I had to to keep the blades loaded.

Ok he lived, but rpm was so low he crashed. My question is, did he do the right thing? what would you do? If you dump col. would that chop the tailboom off?

Wander what that guy with the Red Bull Bolkow does?

What would you do?

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having been with them for 14+ yrs I'd think you'd have the answer to your ?

 

as things seems to run in streaks, let's hope your streak in done and things get back to "normal"

I hope so.

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This is the same company in WI. that pilot was killed from blade strike,and same one that lost a 47 from honeybee. I really feel bad for them, It's a verry good company, I have flown for them for 14 yrs. They are just having really bad luck.

Hear is what happend last fall.

When the season was over, one of the owners was flying one of the hel. to store it for the winter and had his dog with him, in a 47.

He saw someone he knew and buzzed them, then the dog went ape s#*t and somehow the cyclick come out of his hand or the dog did it or something and it went inverted! He got it back upright before he hit the ground but rpm was verry low and destroyed the hel. He was not hurt except for maby ego.

I ask him what he did when he was upside down and he said he pulled pitch, he said I had to to keep the blades loaded.

Ok he lived, but rpm was so low he crashed. My question is, did he do the right thing? what would you do? If you dump col. would that chop the tailboom off?

Wander what that guy with the Red Bull Bolkow does?

What would you do?

I'd do what he did. Except maybe leave the dog at home.

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He wasn't inverted in a 47. If he had been, the head would have snapped off from mast bumping. He may have been in a steep bank. Flying stories and fish stories grow over time.

 

I learned mast bumping is related to a low G condition. It would certainly be possible to roll a helicopter inverted and back upright again while maintaining 1 G or 1+ G.

Edited by yzpilot
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Yes, it's theoretically possible to do a barrel roll in a 47, if you get the speed high enough before the entry. Having the dog hit the cyclic in cruise isn't an entry that will give a good result, and you would have to continue the roll, not stop it and revert to level. I just don't believe he was inverted. It makes a good story, though, and those type stories become more exciting with each retelling. We all know that fairy tales start with "Once upon a time..." and aviation stories start with "No S**t, there I was...". ;)

Edited by Gomer Pylot
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If I were truly inverted, I'd probably take a deep breath and pray. If I'm in a steep bank, I'm loading that disk and maybe thinking about jettisoning the dog!

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He wasn't inverted in a 47. If he had been, the head would have snapped off from mast bumping. He may have been in a steep bank. Flying stories and fish stories grow over time.

 

I see no reason why he could not have been inverted, how do you think helicopters do rolls at airshows? A very good friend of mine got rolled to over (about) 140 degrees of bank by turbulence in a 407, he was luckily high enough to be able to roll it out and recover but I can see how it can really go wrong if you don't react correctly. Most helicopters would be able to do a roll if done correctly, mast bumping will only occur with low or negative g and if a roll is done properly it will always be at positive g.

 

An important thing to remember is which way the thrust vector is pointing, if it is below the horizon and continuing that way, you will want to reduce collective or it is just going to increase the rate of descent. If the rate of roll is still high when reaching the inverted position it would be easier to continue the roll to wings level. If high enough, pitching through is an option but a lot of height will be lost and the speed will probably get away from you but who cares as long as you live through it. It is also quite possible to decrease the collective while loading the disc to prevent negative g but it will take experience and preparation to do that. The pilots reactions in the original post may not have been perfect but he lived and that is enough for me.

 

As in any emergency, mental preparation is most of the battle and if you are prepared or have thought this through it will dramatically improve your chances of surviving. A bit of experience of fixed wing aerobatics is actually quite useful and will allow you to be more comfortable in unusual attitudes.

 

I read a book called "Roll around a point" and is goes into detail how to do aerobatics. It was printed many years ago but the basics remain the same. The author was of the opinion that all pilots should do aerobatics at some stage and he does have a point. One example in the foreword was about a DC-4 or DC-6 airliner that got rolled inverted by turbulence or a microburst on final approach and about 400 feet above ground IIRC. The captain had done a lot of aerobatics before and he pushed on the yoke to prevent losing height and then rolled it level, great presence of mind and it saved everyone's lives on board.

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OH you can go inverted in a 47....BUT JUST ONE TIME....with no chance of seeing daylight again! Not in a two bladed system, only fully articulated...ie: BO-105, 407(although you have to spend about a million to get it recertified!!). Going past 90 degrees in a moment like this guy had, may have seemed like 180, but there's no way the rotor system in a 47 could take that kind of stress.

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Are you advocating aerobatics be taught in helicopters? Sounds like a really terrible idea to me.

I don't think ANY amount of airplane aerobatic traing will do much for you in a helicopter.

 

Not for one second am I advocating helicopter aerobatics. Any flying experience outside the point A to point B that most people fly will improve your chances of surviving something unusual. Experience makes a difference and familiarity with fixed wing aerobatics would mean less stress if you end up in an unusual attitude in a helicopter. Even though the control inputs may be completely different it will not be the first time you are inverted so "less" stress, not the absence of it. Less stress means more brain cells are available for solving the immediate problem.

 

To get back to the topic, the guy lived so he did something right.

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OH you can go inverted in a 47....BUT JUST ONE TIME....with no chance of seeing daylight again! Not in a two bladed system, only fully articulated...ie: BO-105, 407(although you have to spend about a million to get it recertified!!). Going past 90 degrees in a moment like this guy had, may have seemed like 180, but there's no way the rotor system in a 47 could take that kind of stress.

 

 

BO-105 is not fully articulated, it's rigid.

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I have done loops, rolls, split S, and my favorite, a back flip in a helicopter. It all depends on the helicopter and its capabilites as well as yours. I certainly don't advocate doing these maneuvers in most helicopters but having gone inverted during a near miss and recovering, it is nice to know you can do it. For the record, the aircraft I did that stuff in was the AH-64 Apache and the Lynx.

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I have done loops, rolls, split S, and my favorite, a back flip in a helicopter. It all depends on the helicopter and its capabilites as well as yours. I certainly don't advocate doing these maneuvers in most helicopters but having gone inverted during a near miss and recovering, it is nice to know you can do it. For the record, the aircraft I did that stuff in was the AH-64 Apache and the Lynx.

 

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Thanks for the input from someone who has done it.

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I have done loops, rolls, split S, and my favorite, a back flip in a helicopter. It all depends on the helicopter and its capabilites as well as yours. I certainly don't advocate doing these maneuvers in most helicopters but having gone inverted during a near miss and recovering, it is nice to know you can do it. For the record, the aircraft I did that stuff in was the AH-64 Apache and the Lynx.

I don't know what a back flip is, please explain. When you did the other stuff, what did you do with the collective?asumming you maintaind pos. g's. I guess my real question is, what to do inverted with neg. g's (with the col.) I think the differance is paramount.

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I don't know what a back flip is, please explain. When you did the other stuff, what did you do with the collective?asumming you maintaind pos. g's. I guess my real question is, what to do inverted with neg. g's (with the col.) I think the differance is paramount.

 

The back flip was demonstrated by a British pilot and it is really just like it sounds. We were in a hover and we pulled the cyclic back and flipped. Coming back to a hover. We did of course lose some altitude, about 75 feet but it was a great maneuver.

 

As for the other manuevers, it is always positive G's. collective position does not necessarily correlate to positve G's. You need to manipulate the cyclic and collective to maintain RPM and Positive G's. Again, your average civil helicopter shouldn't be put through these types of maneuvers. Even if you don't get into blade flap, if your systems are not pressurized, you are subject to control lock up or component seizure.

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The back flip was demonstrated by a British pilot and it is really just like it sounds. We were in a hover and we pulled the cyclic back and flipped. Coming back to a hover. We did of course lose some altitude, about 75 feet but it was a great maneuver.

 

As for the other manuevers, it is always positive G's. collective position does not necessarily correlate to positve G's. You need to manipulate the cyclic and collective to maintain RPM and Positive G's. Again, your average civil helicopter shouldn't be put through these types of maneuvers. Even if you don't get into blade flap, if your systems are not pressurized, you are subject to control lock up or component seizure.

WOW, thanks for the info however thats way over my head. I am the kind of pilot that looks out the window and TOTES the loads. In skool I did learn gazenda, you know 3 gazenda 6.

I'll take you'r word for it and this hillbilly crapduster won't be trying it in my 47 or oh-58.

This has been an intersting topic, thanks for all the input.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Yes, it's theoretically possible to do a barrel roll in a 47, if you get the speed high enough before the entry. Having the dog hit the cyclic in cruise isn't an entry that will give a good result, and you would have to continue the roll, not stop it and revert to level. I just don't believe he was inverted. It makes a good story, though, and those type stories become more exciting with each retelling. We all know that fairy tales start with "Once upon a time..." and aviation stories start with "No S**t, there I was...". ;)

 

 

It also starts with"see what had happen was".... then you know everything after that is bullshit

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