captkirkyota Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 Okay....., am I in for some serious future problems in this industry?I read all these deep probing questions about power being the same at SL vs Altitude with the same MP or not. The efficiency of a turbine at altitude, people throwing in equations with things like -v and c and cl and other stuff for approach angles and other topics that leave me going when it is all I can do to remember the things I have been CRAMMING into my head for 4-8 hours a day for the last 15 months, and none of it was all these crazy math equations and other things. Yes, I saw them in the books, read them, but was not made to figure all kinds of things out with them, I just looked at the limitations and placards, and fly, learned to pick a spot on the horizon, or on the canopy, etc etc and perform the maneuvers. Am I missing something thinking to myself, who cares?!?!?!?!? when I read all this stuff? Do I NEED to care? Does all this stuff really matter that you guys are talking about now, that make me feel really dumb and wonder, did my instructor teach me that?, if so was I in a coma that day?......or is this just stuff that over time I too will pick up and become interested in?...., because honestly, I am not really all that interested in knowing all the theory behind all the stuff, at least not at this point. I just want to fly and be safe, and I know a certain amount of understanding is required to be safe etc, but am I in for a rude awakening? Please other up and comers in this industry, please chime in and tell me I'm not alone, tell me I'm just brave/stupid enough to speak up first and look like a dummy. Cuz right now I feel like I've been riding in the short bus and did not know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmmarine Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 I think that for some people, having an in-depth knowledge of the theory and mathematical explanations for certain things, makes the thing easier to understand. Many people can't perform the most basic task without understanding the exact reason for it and the mechanics that make it work. On the other hand, there are the other people. Who just do it, and don't ever worry about all of the equations, numbers, and letters that go into the explanations. After they have mastered whatever it is that they are trying to do, they are able to explain it, perhaps in not such a scientific manner, but in a way that makes sense to them. Do you have to memorize the theories, and equations, and the infinite number of mathematical formulas that make things work? Probably not, but some people do. In the end, just do what works for you, and always try to garner a better understanding of what you are doing so that if something isn't working, you can come up with a way to make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly N. Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 Do I NEED to care? Does all this stuff really matter that you guys are talking about now, that make me feel really dumb and wonder, did my instructor teach me that?, if so was I in a coma that day?......or is this just stuff that over time I too will pick up and become interested in?...., because honestly, I am not really all that interested in knowing all the theory behind all the stuff, at least not at this point. I just want to fly and be safe, and I know a certain amount of understanding is required to be safe etc, but am I in for a rude awakening? Please other up and comers in this industry, please chime in and tell me I'm not alone, tell me I'm just brave/stupid enough to speak up first and look like a dummy. Cuz right now I feel like I've been riding in the short bus and did not know it. As a future up and comer (I hope), I can say that, although I try to go as in depth as possible into the technical why's and wherefores of the theory, I personally think the how and what are the main things to focus on initially. Flying safe is my first priority. I don't know that having a complete understanding of the technical details of settling with power is required to avoid the conditions or recover from the onset (especially since the technical specifics seem to be a point of contention between U.S. instruction and that done overseas). However, I think that getting my head around as much of the technical details as I can will help me as I progress further into my career. I especially think that the more in depth I understand something, the better I'll be able to help others understand in the future when I'm putting in my time as a CFI. For now though, I'm focusing on getting through the private rating safely and building the foundation for future ratings and a long, safe flying career. My .02. Kelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pogue Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 Do I NEED to care?Naaah... Some of use are fascinated by the wee fiddly bits and describing it in math or engineering terms helps us understand it. I don't think it makes any difference as far as how good a pilot you are, it's just the tool set you use to get there... In the end it's all about how to get the helicopter to do what you want while knowing what it (and you) can't do. There's more that one way to get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heligirl03 Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 I can speak as one of those who needs to SEE the derivation of the theory. At least once. Trained primarily as a scientist, it is branded into my soul not to take things at face value. I want to see proof. Hence, my dorkness when it comes to studying aerodynamics and mechanical function, etc etc. The fact that the thing spins around the thing and connects to the whosiwhatsit does nothing for me. I want names and drawings and experimental values to prove it all. While making it entirely an uphill battle for me in comparison with some of my colleagues, I just know that's what I need to personally feel safe flying. I would never use any of it directly in flight, that would be impossible. But by studying the background in depth, I am able to read and trust the charts and placards better because I now understand exactly what went into creating them besides trial and error for aircraft certification 35yrs ago when even DNA was a relatively new concept...okay, not THAT new...1954...but anyway... That said, I know PLENTY of pilots who couldn't care LESS about some of the stuff I've spent hours pouring over, and they are phenomal helo drivers with whom I would would not hesitate a moment to jump in the back seat with. I think it's purely personal interest and different learning styles. FOIs!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 Do you need to know if you can hover at a proposed landing site? It would be a good idea, but it's obvious that some people can't figure it out, and spread parts all over the place when they try to land. You definitely need to be able to read performance charts. If you get in a situation where you're short on fuel and can't land immediately, it would be nice to know how to maximize your range. You may not be able to get to the charts right away, and you should at least know the theory, so you can at least have a chance. Some of this stuff you learn from books, some you learn from doing. Any day you don't learn something is a wasted day. You've only started learning, and you need to plan to continue forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captkirkyota Posted August 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 Gomer, agreed.Emily, I am somewhere between you and those you describe. I am known by the flight instructors as usually a bit over prepared over studied and thus pretty good at my ground most of the time, and even been called a bit anal in wanting to know stuff, but they don't mean it negatively. I'd love to see/hear what you'd be thought of with a science mindset! Okay, so I don't feel so bad then, I like to know the hows and why to a point, but I don't think in highly technical theorem and other mathematical ways, I'm more of a show me how, explain it too me, I'll read a bit more and dig into more if I think I need to. Some of these discussion lately to me are, just check the charts, memorize some tables and important info from said charts and such you'll need to know in flight and move on, and clearly some of this stuff does not fit that. If it does I hope I realize it before it is too late. Thanks everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 Find a stormy day and spend it going through the RFM. You don't have to memorize the charts cold, but you should know trends and how to get into and through all of them. You should be familiar with them, and know how to find whatever you need. This is for just being a pilot, and as a CFI you really need to know them very well. You will be asked questions about all this stuff, and you need to have an answer. You don't have to be able to give numbers off the top of your head, but you do need to know exactly where to go to find the info, and be able to show it on demand. If you thought this was going to be an easy job with no intellectual demands, you were badly misinformed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captkirkyota Posted August 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 If you thought this was going to be an easy job with no intellectual demands, you were badly misinformed. Where and how did you get that idea in my posts?I said that I've done exactly what you suggest, I just was wondering about all the deep theory and hair splitting details like your argument about turbine fuel usage at altitude and other stuff that to me seemed kind of over the top and not needed for the job. I am good to go on what you suggest and am not worried about teaching, I can talk at length on subjects and am a good teacher. However, if I get a student who wants all the super deep background and mathematical stuff, they will not be happy with how far I'll be able to go into the non needed to fly and be a good pilot stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizt4hire Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 I totaly feel you on this one. I've been pouring over "Principles of Helicopter Flight," and there are a ton of equations that make no sense to me. Like the others before said, that kind of stuff isn't something you would use in flight, but it helps to have the understanding about where all the "magic numbers" come from. I keep finding myself getting overwhelmed by all the detailed info, so I've been finding it a little easier to digest by asking my instructor what it all means for the bigger picture. It also helps to try and vizualize the forces behind what's going on in flight. Of course when I'm getting bombarded with new procedures and techniques that's not always practical either. From what I've gathered around the school, knowing where to get the numbers and equations is more important than rote memorization. Thankfully, knowing the capabilities and limits of the machine doesn't require a Ph.D in physics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500E Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 I am somewhere in between I want to know is it safe, so an amount of theory is good I also am an engineer by profession and an APs nightmare, I want to know how why and the reason, I read the engineering manuals, flight manuals & most importantly if I don't understand things ASK, do not think it is either stupid or shows lack of education, most people like to be asked about their subjectWhen we get to the higher maths I tend to ask a friend who is just like the person in klmmarines first paragraph.Wish flygirl03 dorkiness would rub off on me a bit, my brain just shuts down after the maths reaches a low level, & being dyslexic does not help with maths.Thanks for Calculators & books, they have got me out of more holes than I care to count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Capt, my statement was pretty much tongue in cheek, but that doesn't come across well in text. Maybe I need to use more smilies. I'm not saying you have to know lots of math, but you do have to know the practical application of it, and where to find it if asked. Instructing is a job, just like any other aviation flying job, and if you want to be successful you have to do it well, and you have to be seen to be knowledgeable. If your students even think you don't know your stuff, you won't be a successful instructor, even if you really do know it. It ain't just fun, it's a job. But of course it's your job, not mine, so I'm done with this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 (edited) Capt Kirk, I think at you're stage of training, you just got a little overwhelmed by the depth ofthe conversation. As was I. Flying helicopters safely is all about knowing the limitationsof the helicopter and yourself. And that comes from experience. Whether you can explainthe lift formula to the level of an aerodynamic engineer is not necessary. But you should know the basics, which if you don't already, you will. A lot of what gets put out there is b.s. anyway. Because NONE of us on this forum are experts, as far as I know. If youhave a good understanding of the flight manual and your helicopter and listen to experienced pilots, you will stay out of trouble. Don't sweat it, you'll be fine. Edited August 16, 2008 by helonorth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captkirkyota Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Capt Kirk, I think at you're stage of training, you just got a little overwhelmed by the depth ofthe conversation. As was I. Flying helicopters safely is all about knowing the limitationsof the helicopter and yourself. And that comes from experience. Whether you can explainthe lift formula to the level of an aerodynamic engineer is not necessary. But you should know the basics, which if you don't already, you will. A lot of what gets put out there is b.s. anyway. Because NONE of us on this forum are experts, as far as I know. If youhave a good understanding of the flight manual and your helicopter and listen to experiencedpilots, you will stay out of trouble. Don't sweat it. You'll be fine. Yeah, I've worked on planes in the Navy and gone through tons of aviation training, I have a pretty good grasp of aerodynamics. I've always scored high at each stage check (141 school) and each check ride.It was just all the hairsplitting details and math stuffs I've seen lately, and in the past that made me finally ask if all that is really necessary out in the real world. My instructors did not go into it like it was being discussed, and since a few students were also discussing it and some even coming up with questions and working through the problems in the thread, it made me wonder if I was in for trouble down the road. It now seems that it is just extra curricular endeavors on the part of the students and pilots who are all similar in the desire to really get into every nook and cranny of a subject and to exhaust it thoroughly to their satisfaction to fill that need of their personalities. (That is not meant as a dig, thank God for people like that, many wonderful breakthroughs in the world are a result of that type of drive and need.)I do that sometimes on some things, but that is not a descriptor of how I am as a general whole.Cool discussion, thanks for all the replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bqmassey Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 I think that for some people, having an in-depth knowledge of the theory and mathematical explanations for certain things, makes the thing easier to understand. Many people can't perform the most basic task without understanding the exact reason for it and the mechanics that make it work. On the other hand, there are the other people. Who just do it, and don't ever worry about all of the equations, numbers, and letters that go into the explanations. After they have mastered whatever it is that they are trying to do, they are able to explain it, perhaps in not such a scientific manner, but in a way that makes sense to them. You're exactly right. I'm of the first type. If I don't have a very solid understandings of the mechanics of something, I'm very slow to pick up how to use it. Sometimes this tendency has been helpful, othertimes a detriment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.