EMS pilots - Tell me more please.

[thrilsekr]

EMS Pilots --

 

What do you do while at work, but not flying. Sit around and wait for the next call?

 

Are there days that you do not fly at all?

 

I am interesting in making EMS a career goal, but I am not much of a sit around and wait kind of guy.

 

The schedule is appealing to to me. 7days on, 7days off. Leaves lot of time for other activities or maybe a second job. Second pilot job?

 

Do many of you have second jobs, or do you use the time for family, hobbies etc.

 

I know the numbers the employers are looking for, but those of you who are EMS, how many hours did you actually have before you got your first EMS job?

 

How old were you when you started flying? When you got your first EMS? What was your career track?

 

Do you feel your personal life has suffered? Either from the career track to get to the EMS point, or even just the non-traditional work schedule of an EMS pilot.

 

How do you keep yourself distanced from the pain and suffering you see on a daily basis?

 

Is it difficult to adjust to the schedule on a regular basis. Getting that bio-clock switched around?

 

Sorry about the personal questions. It is something I am seriously interested in, and want to get the facts. If you want you can PM your response. I would greatly appreciate it.

 

_______

Thrilsekr

[JDHelicopterPilot]

EMS Pilots --

 

What do you do while at work, but not flying. Sit around and wait for the next call?

 

Answer: I come in, check weather, preflight, brief with crew, conference call then sit and wait. Sometimes I don't fly at all in my 12 hour shift. Some times I do. Just never know. When waiting, there is movies, TV, computer, breakfast, lunch and diner, sleep and hang out. Of course only after your pilot duties are taken care of.

 

Are there days that you do not fly at all?

 

Answer: Yes

 

I am interesting in making EMS a career goal, but I am not much of a sit around and wait kind of guy.

 

Answer: If you don't like to sit around then you might have a hard time. You can find a hobby to keep yourself busy in down time perhaps. I find my life a little more relaxing now. It's easy for me to keep on small chores. Like pay bills online and make phone calls. Gives me more time at home for other stuff.

 

The schedule is appealing to to me. 7days on, 7days off. Leaves lot of time for other activities or maybe a second job. Second pilot job?

 

Answer: It is great. 12 hour shift though but that is ok. It's nice if you live near your base. Then you can sleep at home and be off for 7 days in a row. Easy to plan vacation time and family time. Downside, if your week on falls on a holiday, you get to work. Unless you find a way to have someone cover it. Which I find not likely.

 

Do many of you have second jobs, or do you use the time for family, hobbies etc.

 

Answer: I think a lot of pilots do. I don't. I have thought about it but not sure what I would do. If I do pick up a second job the schedule would eat into my "7 days off" from EMS. That would make it harder to plan fun time.

 

I know the numbers the employers are looking for, but those of you who are EMS, how many hours did you actually have before you got your first EMS job?

 

Answer: Well, I was right at the minimums. Just under 3,000 hours and 100 night. With the right attitude and ability to learn and grow they will look at you. This isn't a retirement job, it can be demanding at times. Good decision making is important.

 

How old were you when you started flying? When you got your first EMS? What was your career track?

 

Answer: 18 years old. Now in EMS at 28. College(meteorology), flight school(for fun, then later as a career) CFI for 2 years, charter pilot flying Astars in Los Angeles, Tours in Las Vegas and now EMS(which was my goal all along).

 

Do you feel your personal life has suffered? Either from the career track to get to the EMS point, or even just the non-traditional work schedule of an EMS pilot.

 

Answer: The hardest thing is the moving around. I planned on staying in Los Angeles for quite some time until I moved on to EMS. Wasn't making enough so I moved to Las Vegas then later on was offered an EMS oportunity. Moving can be hard on the family. For me I am lucky they are so understanding and proud of what it is I do.

 

How do you keep yourself distanced from the pain and suffering you see on a daily basis?

 

Answer: Still figuring that out. Try not to get to involved with the PT or family. Try not to follow them into the hospital but it seems I do because I like to help the crew if they need it. You just have to be able to focus on the job. That is to get myself home at night. If I do that, then those behind me will also. You can not let the fact that someone who may be sick influence your decision making. It won't do anyone any good if a mistake or poor decision is made. Be conservitive as a pilot. This is why I say, Aviation Decision making is important and so is CRM(Crew Ressource Management). They are there to help you to.

 

Is it difficult to adjust to the schedule on a regular basis. Getting that bio-clock switched around?

 

Answer: I haven't gotten to nights yet. Just the day shift. I start nights tomorrow. From what I hear it can get you off guard. Again, make sure you are well rested and take your time. Don't rush to the aircraft, slow down and cross your T's and dot the I's so to speak.

 

Sorry about the personal questions. It is something I am seriously interested in, and want to get the facts. If you want you can PM your response. I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Answer: That is what the forum is for. Ask anything you like, there are no stupid questions. I did the same thing when I was in your shoes. Keep in mind every job will have a good side and a bad side. I like what I do. The flying is fun. Never know when or where. Sometimes it can be a challenge. If I've helped someone in the end all the better and that can be satisfying. That's not something I think about when flying or planning. Just have to be able to flip the switch.

 

 

Hope this helps, maybe someone else whos been in EMS longer can weigh in. Maybe I'll learn something. It's a never ending process in aviation, you are never done learning. Just the way it is.

[thrilsekr]

Thanks JD.

Really good information.

Couple more questions:

It took you 10 years to get to your career goal of EMS? Was that a concentrated effort? You had college listed in there. Did you fly much during college? Is 10 years typical for 3000 hours?

"Of course only after your pilot duties are taken care of." Like what? Or just the duties you already mentioned. What does briefing the crew entail and the conference call?

 

Thanks again.

 

_______

thrilsekr

[Gomer Pylot]

Lots of sitting around waiting. That's about 98% of the job. We average maybe one flight per day, in a good month, split between two pilots. If you get to fly every other day, it's a good week. There are times I fly 3 or 4 flights in a shift, and there are entire hitches when I don't fly at all. If you don't like sitting around, you'll hate EMS.

 

The older you get the harder it is to switch from day to night, I think. There are jobs where you have to change every week, and 7/7 is far from the only schedule. You have to switch, and be absolutely alert any time a call comes in. Night scene flights will kill you if you're partially asleep. Literally, they will kill you, and the med crew, and the patient.

 

I had about 13,000 hours when I started EMS. I don't know exactly, because I quit keeping a logbook years ago. It wasn't my first choice for a career, so I didn't pursue it at all earlier on. Things change.

 

I have done 7/7 for a long, long time, and it is good and bad. You never get 7 days at home, never. If you average 6, you're very lucky. That means you miss more than half of your kids' childhoods. You miss their ballgames, their concerts, you miss anniversaries and holidays, you miss far too much. If you can stay married working 7/7 away from home, you're very lucky. It takes a special sort of woman to put up with it, and I'm very lucky to have one. If your marriage isn't absolutely rock-solid, with total trust on both sides, it won't survive it.

 

Most EMS people survive the pain by joking about it. I try to ignore it, and not get involved. I try to pretend I'm carrying a box of tools or something. It doesn't really work, but it's still better than getting shot at, hit, and having your friends get killed around you. If you can survive that, you can survive EMS. If you've never experienced it, EMS might be a little hard, but it's different for everyone.

 

I've never tried to work a second job, because you can never count on being at home. There is always workover, recurrent training, being caught away from the base by weather, and lots of other things that come up. If you're working two jobs, you can never give proper attention to either. Nor can you have the time to recuperate from either job.

[Marc D]

EMS Pilots --

 

What do you do while at work, but not flying. Sit around and wait for the next call?

 

Read, study, internet shop, sleep, pay bills.

 

Are there days that you do not fly at all?

 

Yes. 175 hours a month in the office. Average 13 hours flying.

 

I am interesting in making EMS a career goal, but I am not much of a sit around and wait kind of guy.

 

Highly recommended you don't do it then.

 

The schedule is appealing to to me. 7days on, 7days off. Leaves lot of time for other activities or maybe a second job. Second pilot job?

 

Yes

 

 

Do many of you have second jobs, or do you use the time for family, hobbies etc.

 

Family. Great schedule for raising a family.

 

I know the numbers the employers are looking for, but those of you who are EMS, how many hours did you actually have before you got your first EMS job?

 

3700

 

How old were you when you started flying? When you got your first EMS? What was your career track?

 

20. 30.

 

Do you feel your personal life has suffered? Either from the career track to get to the EMS point, or even just the non-traditional work schedule of an EMS pilot.

 

No.

 

How do you keep yourself distanced from the pain and suffering you see on a daily basis?

 

Just has never been a problem for me. I don't think I could fly for a children's hospital though.

 

 

Is it difficult to adjust to the schedule on a regular basis. Getting that bio-clock switched around?

 

For me, very much so. For some it doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

Sorry about the personal questions. It is something I am seriously interested in, and want to get the facts. If you want you can PM your response. I would greatly appreciate it.

 

_______

Thrilsekr

[delorean]

What do you do while at work, but not flying. Sit around and wait for the next call?

 

Like you said, sit around. Sleep, watch TV, sleep, play on the computer, sleep, ride my bike around the airport, sleep, hit golf balls around the airport, sleep, play GTA, and SLEEP.

 

Are there days that you do not fly at all?

 

Yeah, probably 2 out of 3 in the winter we don't fly. Summertime it's usually one flight a shift. With my other job and working 300+ days a year, I still fly less than 200 hrs.

 

I am interesting in making EMS a career goal, but I am not much of a sit around and wait kind of guy

 

I wasn't either, and I was worried about that. I was ready to jump in the ocean after being on a cruise ship for 2 days. But you'll get used to it. It's not like being at work--you're at "home" all day with all the comforts of home. I usually come to work able to sleep--not tired, nor wide awake--but able to sleep at least 3-4 hrs of daylight away, or 6-8 at night. That really helps pass the time. Then on your 12 off you're not tired and can run errands and get stuff done at home.

 

The schedule is appealing to to me. 7days on, 7days off. Leaves lot of time for other activities or maybe a second job. Second pilot job?

 

Yep, I fly ENG part time. But there's always workovers available at time+half. Some people have full time jobs or their own businesses on the side. Depends on how much you want to make. Since I live close to my base and several others are within an hour drive, I can make more money on OT than another job.

 

Do many of you have second jobs, or do you use the time for family, hobbies etc.

 

Both. But, all of my hobbies I can do at work. I take my DeLorean to work and work on it in the hangar. I restored an old Honda ATC 110 three wheeler in the hangar. I restore old pinball machines and do a lot gourmet cooking too. The only thing I can't play with at work are my guns.

 

I know the numbers the employers are looking for, but those of you who are EMS, how many hours did you actually have before you got your first EMS job?

 

I had 2000 hrs and zero turbine time. I was lucky, I got in when they didn't require the turbine time (and the mins where actually 1500 TT then.) Now, 2000 TT and 500 turbine at most places.

 

How old were you when you started flying? When you got your first EMS? What was your career track?

 

I started flying airplanes at 10, helicopters at 13, CFI at 18, A&P at 19, first EMS job at 22.

 

Do you feel your personal life has suffered? Either from the career track to get to the EMS point, or even just the non-traditional work schedule of an EMS pilot.

 

Somewhat. I don't have many friends I get to hang out with outside of work. I don't have much extended family, so that's not an issue. However, my wife works weekends, and the way my schedule works out, I only work nights during the week, so we're off always Monday-Friday together. She picks up OT during the week and I do a ton over workovers + part time ENG on top of that. I'm always bumping up against the minimum 13, 24hr periods off a quarter. If I worked just 7/7 I could easily have more of a social life I suppose. But the money is way too appealing and the way I'm going I won't need to work full time after 40. I'll save the time off and all that extra money for when I have a kid.

 

I have a LOT more of a life than when I was a flight instructor / mechanic. Then, it was all day shifts, 14 hrs a day, 8 hrs of flying, and maintenance in between. I did that 7 days a week, holidays, and still had to fit college and grad school in. I came home exhausted (if I didn't end up sleeping on the couch at the school.) The cell phone never stopped ringing and I had to worry about students soloing, getting ready for checkrides, deadlines, inspections, etc.

 

With EMS, you may work a lot of days in a row, or not like the 12 hr shifts;but the fact that you can sleep at work, leaves you rested for your 12 off. I have ZERO responsiblities once I get in my car to come home. Turn your phone off, they cannot bother you during you 10 hrs rest time mandated by 135.

 

How do you keep yourself distanced from the pain and suffering you see on a daily basis?

 

It's just freight to me. I'm a heartless b@stard I guess--I really don't care. You feel sorry for some of these people, especially the kids, but you can get more depressed watching the news. You're mad at most of them--the drunks, druggies, street racers, and the ones that demand to be flown by helicopter because they have a cold. You fly a lot more stupid people than true accidents. Ever seen Jackass? Yeah, that kind of stuff--funny at times.

 

Is it difficult to adjust to the schedule on a regular basis. Getting that bio-clock switched around?

 

It really depends on the schedule,the base, and your body. If it's a busy base and you do seven straight nights of flying, I sure that could mess you up. We do 4 days, then switch to 3 nights (or 3 days, four nights.) We're not a busy base, so you're body doesn't have time to readjust. If you fly all night, just sleep it off the next day and that's it. I NEVER sleep when I'm not tired--so I don't sleep a full day in preparation for a night shift--I'll only take a 45 minute "cat nap" in the afternoon if I'm tired. I only sleep to catch up on sleep if that makes any sense. 8-9 hrs in a 24hr period max. After a few months you'll find your schedule....don't worry about it.

 

HEMS is a great career man. It will truely ruin you for anything else though. There is no way I could ever go back to a real job. Come to think of it, I've never had a real job though.

[thrilsekr]

Wow.

Thanks for all the great info fellas.

The more I look into it, the more appealing it is to me.

I still have a long ways to go, but I think I have found my motivation.

 

If you had to pick one thing, what is the Worst part of the job?

 

JD, what do you mean by "brief with crew" and "conference call"?

 

Delorean, when you are gourmet cooking, do you just turn everything off and head out? Not that it would be a big deal, it is only food...

About the comforts of home. I have heard pretty bad stories about the amenities of the base.

 

Gomer, how did you get a EMS (or any) job without an accurate logbook?

 

Marc, with the difficulties adjusting to the shifts, do you ever find yourself concerned about your ability to fly?

 

Thanks

[JDHelicopterPilot]

We do a crew briefing. The crew consists of me(pilot), Medic and Nurse.

 

So we will meet up at the begining of my shift when they(wake up of course) and cover different things. Some of which we cover:

 

Hot loading, fueling, who will guard the tail rotor when on scene, weather, max PT weight we can take, maintenance issues, level of O2, fuel on board, crew fatigue, sterile cockpit and more.

 

The conference call is company wide. We call in and each base pilot will go down a standard list of items. This is mostly for our dispatch and Chief Pilot to get an idea of each bases status. We cover, weather, maintenance, the crew working that day, what aircraft we are flying and more.

[Wally]

My .02-

>What do you do while at work, but not flying. Sit around and wait for the next call?

 

I do some other things for the base and program.

 

>Are there days that you do not fly at all?

Yup

 

>The schedule is appealing to to me. 7days on, 7days off. Leaves lot of time for other activities or maybe a second job. Second pilot job?

 

Second job, family business.

 

>I know the numbers the employers are looking for, but those of you who are EMS, how many hours did you actually have before you got your first EMS job?

 

8500 helo pic, some IFR, 3-400 night unaided.

 

>How old were you when you started flying? When you got your first EMS? What was your career track?

 

19. 52. High school, flight school, Vietnam, real jobs for 10 years, and back to flying.

 

>Do you feel your personal life has suffered? Either from the career track to get to the EMS point, or even just the non-traditional work schedule of an EMS pilot.

 

Family life better than it was pre-EMS. The job is more involving, you're a bigger part of a very small machine (the base) even in a big company like Air Methods, it's not unusual for the job to demand a little time even when you're off-shift.

 

>How do you keep yourself distanced from the pain and suffering you see on a daily basis?

 

Intentional effort to get only the info I need to fly. I don't look, I don't ask, and I don't listen- except to the general tempo of the me crew. Sometimes it's harder than other times. I trust my medical crew.

 

>Is it difficult to adjust to the schedule on a regular basis. Getting that bio-clock switched around?

 

There's no helping it, old or young. The invincibility of youth is not- repeat, NOT- protective, and that will bite yer butt if you don't learn better. I saw the same problems in Vietnam that I see now in EMS.

 

>If you had to pick one thing, what is the Worst part of the job?

 

Not enough flying. This is not a job to build time on.

 

If I may-

RE: 'crew brief'- most programs want a formal discussion of defined variables with each crew change- weather, airspace, aircraft, procedures, etc.;

Facilities vary widely, even within programs, some humble to slummy, some pretty nice. Presently, I'm at a detached ramp on a public airport, with an approximate 400 sq ft private office, 10,000 sq ft hangar (shared, but primarily ours), tug, fuel, etc. On the other end of the spectrum, one of our bases shared 2 rooms in an EMS station and a level place out back for the helicopter.

[delorean]

If you had to pick one thing, what is the Worst part of the job?

 

Delorean, when you are gourmet cooking, do you just turn everything off and head out? Not that it would be a big deal, it is only food...

About the comforts of home. I have heard pretty bad stories about the amenities of the base.

 

Worst part? Patients that smell or have something you don't want. The other night at 3AM we flew a 300 lbs woman who had fallen down her basement stairs six days prior. Maggots and fleas had set in and the smell was the most horrible smell I had ever encountered. It was a interfacility transfer so the hospital provided us with gowns, masks, face shields, gloves, etc. My secret weapon--Vicks VapoRub--smear it all over you face and you'll be fine. It was about 40 degrees out, but we had all the windows and vents open + full heat. 15 minute flight from hell. That, GI bleeds, and burn patients are the worst. Also, the call two hours after you back from the hospital, "Hey, BTW, we found out the patient has XXXXX. You need to get a series of antibiotics in the next 2 wks." That sucks too.

 

Now on to the good part.......

 

Our base is a mobile home. It three bedrooms, two bathrooms, living room, and kitchen (we were restricted on size since we're on an airport, most of the other have extra room for the night pilot plus an office.) We have DirecTV, DVD, & VCR in every bedroom and living room. The living room has big screen, surround sound, PS2 (getting a PS3 for xmas). Two computers on T1 line plus wireless. Covered deck with BBQ grill. The hangar is 60x40 with a bedroom/office/bathroom for the mechanic. We have a second smaller hangar for a spare aircraft that we all park our cars in. There's a bunch of exercise equipment in there that never gets used.

 

As far as cooking goes, I cook in stages. Lots of prep work rather than mutlitasking. Nothing too complicated at work, or if I do, do it on a bad WX day when we won't be flying. I've never ruined anything, just had a lot of delayed meals. If we could get an oven/stove with a count-down timer like I have at home, that would be great. Maybe next Christmas. When I finally decide to semi-retire, I want to go to the Culinary Institute of America in NY or Le Cordon Bleu in Paris for a semester or two.

[thrilsekr]

Great info. Much obliged...

I never even really considered the airborne infection. Getting two hours worth of antibiotics would suck. I guess I thought the pilots would be a more quarantined from the crew. There is a lot of air moving around, though... Better safe than sorry.

 

I am looking more and more forward to this possible future.

 

Thanks.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

The cooking is fun, just finished cooking for the base. Good ol tasty burgers. Our base is actualy inside an FBO. We each have our own room and bed and TV. Pretty much the same as Delorean has.

[Parafiddle]

I too have considered pursuing EMS at some point in my future career. However, I will be doing it as a second career after retiring from the military (unfortunately not as a pilot). I figure I will be in my early 50's before I have enough RW time to pursue a career other than instructing. From the perspective of an older, lower-time pilot, is EMS a career path I should avoid (assuming I had enough hours to get the job). I'm thinking in terms of slower reflexes, etc. By that point in my life, I'll probably looking for steady flying, but could work seasonal jobs, and won't have kids in the house anymore. Any recommendations for a person in semi-retirement in terms of pilot career paths? I'm already a FW pilot and hope to have over 1,200 hrs. FW by the time I retire. I know it won't help with RW jobs, but I might be able to do some FW flying on the side. Thoughts?

[Gomer Pylot]

I've never had anyone actually ask to look at my logbook. My former employer kept track of the time, and sent out annual reports, so I had a pretty good idea, and of course my military time was recorded. On my resume I just put estimated totals. When your total time is well over 10,000 hours, a few hundred more or less isn't really important. The only time you are legally required to log is that required for a rating. With an ATP, there aren't many more ratings available, so I just don't bother.

[thrilsekr]

Good point gomer.

 

Good question parafiddle. Does anyone know or have a good guess what the average EMS pilot age is? And maybe the age most pilots retire from EMS into something a bit less challenging.

[delorean]

My employer went through all of our logbooks. One guy in our class bragged about all his past S76, MD900, BK117, etc EMS experience. He filled out the annual flight time form with all of those a/c, but then couldn't back it with his 10 different log books. He wasn't cutting it with the ground & flight training and they let him go at the end of the second week. So, if you're going to talk a big game, you better be able to back up all your past experience if asked.

 

They went through my three books with a fine tooth comb. But I was young and at the minimums so I'm sure they suspected a bunch of BIC time. I kept perfect records though--fairly consistant hours per flight & hours per day--nothing that would have raised an eyebrow. When I went for my part time ENG job, the CP flipped few a few pages and handed my latest book back to me.

 

As long as your a good pilot and have a few prior reputable 135 employers and/or military experience, you don't have to worry too much about it. Keep good records until you get that first job though.

[rotormandan]

BIC time?

[delorean]

"BIC" as in Bic pen.....Pencil-whipped time......Falsified time. I always say "B-I-C" time because it sounds like "P-I-C" time. Get it? haha

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I was wondering the same thing, what was BIC time. That was funny. But not for those that actualy do that.

[Parafiddle]

Better to be honest ALL the time and prove your hours by having the skills to back it up. Hours in the logbook translate to skills and abilities in the cockpit. High time equals higher proficiency and it will become apparent pretty quickly if your skills don't match what your logbook says. No matter what you do, word gets around and will hurt you down the line. Better to pay your dues longer than to try to fudge things a little for short term gain that ends up being long term pain.

[e36_m3_turbo]

How would some of you recommend getting into the EMS or even ENG careers? What steps did you take to get into this type of work? How do most of you recieve jobs like these? Word of mouth? Just walking in somewhere and applying? Etc.I have just been doing a little research and find no sources of even applying at one place for EMS or ENG pilot jobs. I really want to fly but the ol' lady thinks its too risky. How did some of you jump this hurrdel, if you experieneced this? Thanks

[JDHelicopterPilot]

For job listings you can look at the following sites:

 

JSFirm (do a search)

 

Just Helicopters (for JH look on the lft side and you'll see an employment link)

 

Here is how I got into EMS.

 

Went to flight schoolm finished through CFI

Flight Instructed

Worked flying Astars doing charters in Los Angeles

Flew tours in Las Vegas

Sent my resume into an EMS company and was hired

 

Lots of night time is important for EMS. Comapanied look for about 2,000-3,000 hours with 100-300 night hours. The websites I listed will give you a good idea what they look for. You can also look on individual comapny sites. Many have HR pages with a list of open jobs. Networking is also important.

[Wally]

How would some of you recommend getting into the EMS or even ENG careers? What steps did you take to get into this type of work? How do most of you recieve jobs like these? Word of mouth? Just walking in somewhere and applying? Etc.I have just been doing a little research and find no sources of even applying at one place for EMS or ENG pilot jobs. I really want to fly but the ol' lady thinks its too risky. How did some of you jump this hurrdel, if you experieneced this? Thanks

 

Can't speak for ENG or add to JDHelicopterPilot's post, generally.

 

EMS-

If your goal is EMS, pick a location(s), get acquainted with the companies based in the area and their minimums, and preferably- visit or at least talk with the pilots. The quality of life/work in EMS is program driven. That works against pilots as well as for them. If your personality or management style doesn't gibe with the program, you won't make it.

I have worked with pilots who started with less than 2000 RW PIC. They are very few. Unaided night time is often the most difficult hurdle. IFR and experience is mandatory.

Familiarizing and introducing yourself won't help you build experience, but it will direct you towards the most useful experience. At one time, a lot of our new hires came from the services or the GoM. Now, the largest single source is local ENG companies.

Introducing yourself will get you contacts and make you more than a name on resume when you qualify.

[heli.pilot]

How would some of you recommend getting into the EMS or even ENG careers? What steps did you take to get into this type of work? How do most of you recieve jobs like these? Word of mouth? Just walking in somewhere and applying? Etc.I have just been doing a little research and find no sources of even applying at one place for EMS or ENG pilot jobs. I really want to fly but the ol' lady thinks its too risky. How did some of you jump this hurrdel, if you experieneced this? Thanks

 

Is convincing the "ol lady" the "hurdle" you refer to?

[e36_m3_turbo]

Is convincing the "ol lady" the "hurdle" you refer to?

Correct. I always tell her that its way safer to fly than drive to work everyday. You have more idiots on the streets than in the air. But shes always like I will always be worried if that was my career. So i dont know what to do. anyone else have thi dilemma?