R22 Collective Controlled Hobbs

[Bootcamp]

Does anyone know the legalities of installing a collective-controlled Hobbs in an R22? I heard a rumor that you have to multiply the flight time by 1.3 for the 100 hour inspection and 2200 hour overhaul.

 

My intention is to find a way to prevent students from shutting down the helicopter too quickly or taking off without a proper run-up. Does anyone know if there is some other sort of tracking device (similar to those in cars) to find out if students are giving the helicopter enough time on run-up/shut-down?

[apiaguy]

You can install a hobbs anywhere you want. Collective, landing gear, engine oil press, transmission oil press, master switch etc...

Usually it is 1.2 hobbs if it is collective mounted...alot of times the airworthiness section of life limited parts will dictate.

[rick1128]

Does anyone know the legalities of installing a collective-controlled Hobbs in an R22? I heard a rumor that you have to multiply the flight time by 1.3 for the 100 hour inspection and 2200 hour overhaul.

 

Many helicopters used for flight training have two hobbs meters installed. One on an oil pressure switch or the like, that is used for billing students and one on the collective or squat switch for maintenance timing. For maintenance purposes, flight time means from the time the aircraft leaves the ground until it lands. It has nothing to do with student billing, engine running, etc.

[delorean]

The multiplier on the R22 is listed in the "Life Limited Component" section of the MX Manual. I think it's 1.17 or 1.27

 

So if you hook up a seperate collective-up + oil pressure activated hobbs, you have to multiply the number off the Hobbs by that standard. This may be beneficial for flight schools since you have a lot of collective down time (startup/shutdowns, set downs between manuevers, autos, etc.) It's a pain in the butt to have to do all the math.

 

It would pay off in the long run though.......last time I was in Bell School, we flew for 1.2 hrs, but the Hobbs only showed .7 because of all the autos. That's a half hour in ONE flight. That's at least $20-30 saved in depreciation on an R22.

 

It's BS that you have to do that in the R22 when in the R44 [and every other helicopter] comes off a collective or skid activated Hobbs.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

The R-22 doesn't have two Hobbs which is why he asked. The 300CBi has two meters.

 

RS: if you do install one why not keep both? One for billing and the other for MX tracking. Wouldn't that keep you from having to do the math?

[Goldy]

The R-22 doesn't have two Hobbs which is why he asked. The 300CBi has two meters.

 

RS: if you do install one why not keep both? One for billing and the other for MX tracking. Wouldn't that keep you from having to do the math?

 

 

I was just going to suggest that. I may have this done when my 22 goes in for Overhaul (soon).

[heli.pilot]

I can see how having the 2 hobbs meters could make you a little extra money, because MX costs are based off a hobbs meter that is turning over less often than the hobbs that the billing is based off, but I don't see how it would help with students rushing the start up and shut down.

 

It seems to me that some students rush the shut down to "save money", they think they're wasting money sitting there shutting down. However if the billing is based off a hobbs that is turning over as long as the engine is turning over, they won't "save money" and will still rush the process. Of course their effort to "save money" is in vein anyway, because they need that pay for that magic 200 hours - whether they pay to sit there and shut down or pay to fly is irrelevant.

 

The only way I could see a different hobbs meter helping with the issue of students rushing the shut down process, is if the only hobbs meter was a collective activated hobbs meter. Then, if the billing were based off a collective activated hobbs, so they were not paying for the shut down time, I wouldn't think it would be hard to convince them to not rush it.

 

In terms of the student rushing the start up - I'm guessing that is just because they are desperate to go flying. To fix that issue, you'll need to make flying not so fun... good luck...

[rotormandan]

If you had 2 hobbs you could tell when the student rushes to shut down if the collective hobbs wasn't any less than a mx hobbs. If a student was going solo or renting they are not going to be doing any practice that will have the collective down for the most part so it'd be easy to identify who is rushing things. Then at least you could bring it up to the student and emphasis the importance of a proper warm up and shut down again. I think it'd be a great idea. I've often wondered why it's not like that on the 22 but it is on the 44.

[heli.pilot]

If you had 2 hobbs you could tell when the student rushes to shut down if the collective hobbs wasn't any less than a mx hobbs. If a student was going solo or renting they are not going to be doing any practice that will have the collective down for the most part so it'd be easy to identify who is rushing things. Then at least you could bring it up to the student and emphasis the importance of a proper warm up and shut down again. I think it'd be a great idea. I've often wondered why it's not like that on the 22 but it is on the 44.

 

That's a good point, I hadn't looked at it from the perspective of comparing the two.

 

The R44 I've flown only has one hobbs meter, and while it says "collective activated" it still turns over while the collective is full down. Do other R44s have two hobbs?

[JDHelicopterPilot]

That's a good point, I hadn't looked at it from the perspective of comparing the two.

 

The R44 I've flown only has one hobbs meter, and while it says "collective activated" it still turns over while the collective is full down. Do other R44s have two hobbs?

 

 

I am pretty sure it shouldn't be running unless you have some collective pitch pulled. Might want to have that checked out. I could be wrong though, don't know too much about the R-44.

[rotormandan]

I've only flown about 3 R44 ships in my day but they all had 2 hobbs. The collective hobbs shouldn't go at all when collective is full down. I assumed it was standard with the 44. I guess not.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I think the collective hobbs is standard on the R-44 but not the R-22.

[heli.pilot]

I am pretty sure it shouldn't be running unless you have some collective pitch pulled. Might want to have that checked out. I could be wrong though, don't know too much about the R-44.

 

 

I've only flown about 3 R44 ships in my day but they all had 2 hobbs. The collective hobbs shouldn't go at all when collective is full down. I assumed it was standard with the 44. I guess not.

 

I agree, it shouldn't run when collective is full down, but the one I fly does. I've watched it turn over while shutting down (collective in full down position).

 

Rotormandan, where is the second hobbs on the R44's you've flown? The ship I fly has the hobbs to the right of the right seat, but I am not aware of a second hobbs.

 

Might have to go for a drive to the airport... curiosity is killing me...

[Miloe]

From a student view point, I've flown R44s with both types of set ups, collective raised=you're paying and engine running=you're paying.

 

I believe that with the collective raised hobbs, people generally add in .2 or .3 to the pic time to account for the time you are starting up/shutting down and responsible for the aircraft. In this setup, the pilot is logging a bit of "free" time in their books. Over the course of months of short hop training flights, it could add up.

 

With the engine running=you're paying set up. Hey, you're on the ramp burning someone's fuel so here's your bill.

 

I don't own aircraft/flight schools so I don't really get an opinion as to which is best/fair. I'd think it would be a nice gesture to be told how the aircraft billing works before hand but that's just me.

[Goldy]

Rotormandan, where is the second hobbs on the R44's you've flown? The ship I fly has the hobbs to the right of the right seat, but I am not aware of a second hobbs.

 

The ship I fly on occasion has the second hobbs up at the very front of the instrument panel. You stand outside at the front of the ship and look thru the bubble, just above and to the left of the landing light.

 

Now go take your drive.

 

Goldy

[rotormandan]

I agree, it shouldn't run when collective is full down, but the one I fly does. I've watched it turn over while shutting down (collective in full down position).

 

Rotormandan, where is the second hobbs on the R44's you've flown? The ship I fly has the hobbs to the right of the right seat, but I am not aware of a second hobbs.

 

Might have to go for a drive to the airport... curiosity is killing me...

 

 

All of the ones I've flown have had 2 right next to each other in the same spot, right of the right seat. One is just labeled "collective."

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Goldy,

 

did it come with the second hobbs from the factory or was that added on later, do you know?

[Goldy]

Goldy,

 

did it come with the second hobbs from the factory or was that added on later, do you know?

 

 

Dont know. The ship came to us used, and has always had 2 hobbs. Dont know if that's where the factory puts em. I guess I could look at the brand new ship that just arrived, ( Raven II) but I dont get to fly that one !

[JDHelicopterPilot]

That is where the 2nd hobbs is on the 300cb.

[spw1177]

The multiplier on the R22 is listed in the "Life Limited Component" section of the MX Manual. I think it's 1.17 or 1.27

 

So if you hook up a seperate collective-up + oil pressure activated hobbs, you have to multiply the number off the Hobbs by that standard. This may be beneficial for flight schools since you have a lot of collective down time (startup/shutdowns, set downs between manuevers, autos, etc.) It's a pain in the butt to have to do all the math.

 

The manual states that the assumption was made that 10.5% of time the engine was running would be spent on the ground, autorotation, etc and therefore the multiplier for a collective activated hobbs was set 1.12. All retirement times and maintenance functions scheduled by a collective activated hobbs require the use of the multiplier. For example, a 100 hr inspection would be performed at a 100 hr interval on a oil pressure hobbs vs 89.3 hr interval for a collective hobbs, and a 2200 hr overhaul would be done at 1965 hrs on a collective hobbs.

 

Potentially it can be beneficial to the operator, but it is not going to make a huge difference.

Edited November 18, 2008 by spw1177

[rick1128]

The manual states that the assumption was made that 10.5% of time the engine was running would be spent on the ground, autorotation, etc and therefore the multiplier for a collective activated hobbs was set 1.12. All retirement times and maintenance functions scheduled by a collective activated hobbs require the use of the multiplier. For example, a 100 hr inspection would be performed at a 100 hr interval on a oil pressure hobbs vs 89.3 hr interval for a collective hobbs, and a 2200 hr overhaul would be done at 1965 hrs on a collective hobbs.

 

Potentially it can be beneficial to the operator, but it is not going to make a huge difference.

 

I am going to stick my oar in the water here. It depends on what the maintenance manual said, however as far as the FAA is concerned, there are two different flight times. One for pilots and one for maintenance. Maintenance flight times are from when the aircraft leaves the ground until it touches down again. The Robinson MM may list it differently. The Schweitzer and Enstrom MM's do not. If Robinson does say it differently, then he is cheating owners, by requiring them to preform required maintenance early. And for a flight school the difference in times does make a major difference. Especially over 2200 hours.