Just starting out...

[vegasmonkey007]

Im in Las vegas, Im interested in attaining a career as a pilot. Funding is difficult to get right now. I did get a loan through Navy Federal to at least get my PPL. . Sallie Mae, ACOPA , and Pilot Finance all said NO. I even had some excellent co-signers with sallie mae. My question is, Im not comfortable in the 22. Im 230lbs, and I am a lot more comfortable in the 300c. How important is it to have experience in the 22?

[coloheli]

They are probably the most used trainers because their cheap. I can tell you that I am never planning on flying one. The 300c is a great machine and fun to fly. But thats just my two cents.

Edited December 29, 2008 by coloheli

[heli.pilot]

There is more to Robbies than just being cheap - for one, you can fit at least twice as many of them in your hanger due to the semi-rigid rotor system!

 

Many choices come into play when choosing between flying 300s and Robinsons, but at 230# you really only have one choice. That is unless you can find a feather-weight instructor! You are within the seat weight limit for the R22 (240#) but by the time you add an average-weight instructor and fuel, you're not going anywhere.

 

The debate on 300 vs R22 is endless, so I won't go there. I will say that I trained in the R22 and I think it's a great machine. I also flew the 300 towards the end of my training, and was glad that I had done the majority of my training in the R22. "Each to their own" as they say, I just like the R22.

 

There are a lot more R22s out there than 300s, so you may find it a little tougher to find a CFI job as a 300 pilot, if that's your plan. The CFI market is pretty tough right now as it is.

[adam32]

Fly whatever you feel comfortable with and whatever you can afford (aka closest school).

 

You can succeed as a pilot no matter what you start out in.

 

And remember, one was designed as a trainer and one wasn't meant to be a trainer...

[kodoz]

There are a lot more R22s out there than 300s, so you may find it a little tougher to find a CFI job as a 300 pilot, if that's your plan. The CFI market is pretty tough right now as it is.

 

At 230, you're also going to have a hard time finding a job as an instructor in a Robbie. I know several guys who were in the 200 lb range and made weight loss an integral part of their training. And, the schools that use 300's run into plenty of instructors who lack sufficient Schweizer experience.

[bossman]

I would add my second to adam32's comments. The only difference being the SFAR for Robbies. Time is time, go for what you like and feel comfortable with.

[heli.pilot]

Fly whatever you feel comfortable with and whatever you can afford (aka closest school).

 

You can succeed as a pilot no matter what you start out in.

 

And remember, one was designed as a trainer and one wasn't meant to be a trainer...

 

I absolutely agree - you can succeed as a pilot no matter what you start out in.

 

I often hear pro-Schweizer make the comment that The R22 wasn't meant to be a trainer, and it's true - go to the factory and Frank will tell you himself. However, a Ford minivan or a Chevy pickup were not meant to "trainer" vehicles used for driving instruction, yet they make perfectly adequate vehicles for this purpose.

 

 

vegasmonkey007:

 

I was just reading a website for a school that uses Schweizers, and found it interesting just how biased their view was. They talked all about how bad the Robinson is, yet totally minimized the Schweizer's shortcomings.

 

From their website-

 

"It doesn’t have a governor. True. And the debate goes on about whether or not a governor is a feature which should be in a trainer. If you’re worried about controlling RPM manually, even though the 300 has a “analog randomizer”, (correlator), you shouldn’t be in a helicopter."

 

and

 

"Ground resonance. This is something that is almost always avoidable through proper technique and proper maintenance. It’s a hazard inherent in the articulated rotor system, but it is avoidable in most circumstances.

 

Mast bumping and low inertia rotor system hazards are also issues that are "avoidable through proper technique"! If you can't manage these hazards you "shouldn't be in a helicopter"!

 

I trained at a school that only uses Robinsons, but if you talk to the owner he has nothing but good things to say about Schweizers. Neither ship is a bad choice, and I wouldn't listen to anyone who suggested otherwise.

 

That said, again, at 230# you really only have one option.

 

As mentioned by Kodoz, you will find it all but impossible to get an instructor job in a Robbie given your size. You may also find it hard to get an instructor job in a Robinson if the vast majority of your time is in a Schweizer. You need 200 total hours, 50 in Robinsons, to meet the SFAR requirements to instruct in Robinsons. But, even once you meet those requirements, you may have a tough time getting the job if you're up against several other guys who all have 200 hours in Robinsons.

 

I'm not trying to give you a hard time about your size by the way, it just happens to be the most relevant factor in your decision between the two aircraft. I'd say if you want to train, and instruct, in Robinsons you would want to shoot for a max flight weight of about 200#. I know of schools in warmer areas such as Texas, that won't look at an instructors resume if their flight weight is more than 175#. In a cooler climate, 200# would be about the limit for an instructor to be a consideration. If your plan is to stay in vegas, and losing 60# is an option, then Robinsons may be a possibility. If not, go Schweizer.

Edited December 29, 2008 by heli.pilot

[adam32]

I absolutely agree - you can succeed as a pilot no matter what you start out in.

 

I often hear pro-Schweizer make the comment that The R22 wasn't meant to be a trainer, and it's true - go to the factory and Frank will tell you himself. However, a Ford minivan or a Chevy pickup were not meant to "trainer" vehicles used for driving instruction, yet they make perfectly adequate vehicles for this purpose.

 

Yep, that's also true, but I'm not sure their are any vehicles that were designed for training...?

 

I personally, would rather be flying something designed for the type of flying I'm doing at the time.

 

Even at that, this whole thread is pretty much done, he needs to train in a 300, Enstrom, Bell 47/Hiller, R44, just due to his weight...

Edited December 29, 2008 by adam32

[ADRidge]

are there any helicopters that were designed for training?

[heli.pilot]

are there any helicopters that were designed for training?

 

I was told that the 300 (269) was designed as a trainer. If that's incorrect, I welcome any information on the topic.

[rick1128]

I was told that the 300 (269) was designed as a trainer. If that's incorrect, I welcome any information on the topic.

 

From what I was told Hughes designed the 269 for a RFP (request for proposal) by the Army to replace the Bell 47 and the Hiller 12. I watched some home movies that a co-worker had taken while he was undergoing flight training at Rucker. At the time they were using Hillers and the Hughes'. Back then the Army did all autos to a full down. It was interesting to watch these machines come thrashing down onto the ground, the skids spreading out, the rotor blades flapping up and down and the tail booms flexing, the helicopter bouncing back into the air and go staggering off to do it again.

 

I suggest that you train in what you can find locally and works for you. Unfortunately, due to your weight, the R22 is basically a non-starter. There is at least one school in the Las Vegas area that uses the 300. Also don't believe the guys who tell you that you can't get an instructor job without R22 time. I know of several instructors who have gotten instructor jobs without ever stepping foot in a robbie. I know 1 who did all his training in an Enstrom. He is now an instructor in Enstroms and H300's. Yes, you might have to move and yes, you will have to be persistent to get your first job. But the truth is you will have to anyway.

[ADRidge]

I was told that the 300 (269) was designed as a trainer. If that's incorrect, I welcome any information on the topic.

 

 

D'oh! Yeah, okay. Point, heli.pilot!

[adam32]

are there any helicopters that were designed for training?

 

269/300's and Hillers I know were...not sure of any others.

[TscottN]

I am a CFI in Las Vegas. I instruct in a 300c .I have time in both ships, although I do have more in the 300.

 

I sent you a PM. Call me if you like and we can discuss your questions, concerns, etc.

 

Tom

[heli.pilot]

Also don't believe the guys who tell you that you can't get an instructor job without R22 time. I know of several instructors who have gotten instructor jobs without ever stepping foot in a robbie. I know 1 who did all his training in an Enstrom. He is now an instructor in Enstroms and H300's. Yes, you might have to move and yes, you will have to be persistent to get your first job. But the truth is you will have to anyway.

 

Yes, you may get an instructor job without Robinson time. However the point that was being made was that you wouldn't (rather, couldn't) get an instructor job flying Robinsons without the SFAR73 mandated 50 hours in Robinsons.

 

Not having any Robinson time won't preclude you from a CFI job flying Schweizers, but it will certainly preclude you from a job flying any Robinsons.

 

Robinson time is also looked upon favorably in the commercial world, from what I hear. I hear that the transition from the R44 to the 206 is very smooth, that they have similar flight characteristics.

Edited December 30, 2008 by heli.pilot

[ADRidge]

Yes, you may get an instructor job without Robinson time. However the point that was being made was that you wouldn't (rather, couldn't) get an instructor job flying Robinsons without the SFAR73 mandated 50 hours in Robinsons.

 

 

From the folks (read: flight school owners) I've talked to, lacking some type of robbie training and the SFAR will definitely limit you. I'd definitely list that in my "things to achieve before employment status" if I were you, but there are many who have gone without it. Best of luck.

[heli.pilot]

From the folks (read: flight school owners) I've talked to, lacking some type of robbie training and the SFAR will definitely limit you. I'd definitely list that in my "things to achieve before employment status" if I were you, but there are many who have gone without it. Best of luck.

 

I agree. Maybe do your private training in the 300, and buy some time in an R44 while working on your commercial or instrument. Even if you didn't get the full 50 hours for the SFAR, you'd at least have some Robinson time - it might help you if the first turbine job you go for is flying a 206.

[Goldy]

Im in Las vegas, Im interested in attaining a career as a pilot. Funding is difficult to get right now. I did get a loan through Navy Federal to at least get my PPL. . Sallie Mae, ACOPA , and Pilot Finance all said NO. I even had some excellent co-signers with sallie mae. My question is, Im not comfortable in the 22. Im 230lbs, and I am a lot more comfortable in the 300c. How important is it to have experience in the 22?

 

 

OK, I have a slightly different take on things. Your immediate goal right now is to get your PPL. At 230, you can easily fly the R22, with an instructor up to around 165-170 pounds or so. Most flights are not more than an hour, so 12 gallons of fuel is all you need on board. (Dont fly with the minimum, you can easily take 14-15 gallons)

 

Fact is, you can get your PPL in the R22 cheaper than anything else. I like the stability of a 300, but if I was a student, an extra say $50 an hour times 50 hours is $2500 bucks you probably dont have right now.

 

So go get your PPL, dont fret about flying the R22. By the time you get to CFI you can fly lots of other ships, and get plenty of time in whatever you want. B47's, Enstroms, 300's, R44's...

 

Good luck.

 

Goldy