Landing Technique?

[helicodger pilot]

Whistlerpilot-

Thanks for the detailed and very informative posts! It great to get an insider's view of real world ops like that. Looks like a real demanding and also really fun job! Appreciate the time and effort you took to educate the rest of us.

[Whistlerpilot]

Hey no problem. Obviously I'm passionate about mountain flying.

 

I'm an experienced heliski guide but still a very green pilot. After all those thousands of hours sitting left seat the pilots couldn't talk me out of going for it. It will be quite some time before I have the experience to fly heliskiing myself. I was very lucky to get a 20 hour jet ranger mountain flying course with a pilot who has been flying for 50 years. Well probably stirred up enough controversy for now. I would like to hear people's thoughts on the training thread which was brought up.

 

All that was a very round-a-bout way of saying that I don't think in thrilsekr's video the pilot is just showing off. Looks like another production heliski pick up to me. It was a pretty dynamic maneuver though and usually pilots try to keep the fancy flying to a minimum so they don't get called "hot shots". It's enough to just do the job, no need to make it more complicated and the mountain environment is particularly unforgiving of mistakes.

 

Here are links to a couple of videos from my mountain flying course last winter. The first one is a landing on a small bench just below the summit at about 7000' Classic mountain approach. The second one is a recce of the NE Arete of Mt Slesse. An airliner crashed into this peak in the late 50's and everyone perished. We were looking for the engines which are still there. The arete is one of the 50 classic climbs in North America.

 

 

 

Hope the weather clears here soon!

[RkyMtnHI]

Whistler,

 

amazing videos, and one of the best topics on VR for a while.

 

thanks again,

 

aloha,

 

dp

[Darren Hughes]

REPLY

On short final you would be pulling more power downwind and if you messed up and continued a downwind approach to the point of commitment to landing you may have to over torque to save a crash. But in the earlier phase of the approach you will be flying at 50 to 60 kts as you set up in the intended direction. To start to slow down you usually pull aft cyclic and reduce collective to not climb. The goal is to slow down not to early (will add to much flying time over the course of all those 50 to 100 approaches) and it's unsafe to fly around the mountains at less than 50 to 60 kts. In the transition phase while slowing down you have low power. If you are downwind the wind pushing you from behind requires extended low power until slowed to the speed to start the final approach. This would mean a huge power grab at the last minute to recover.

 

Ok, I'd forgotten about the extended flare that would probably be needed to slow that bad boy down while approaching down wind.

 

Dude, I had a huge grin on my face while reading your last post. I always said that I'd like to fly some heliski ops at some point in my career, but never focused too much on it. Now you got me all riled up about it again. Damn, I love this business!!!

[heli.pilot]

Here are links to a couple of videos from my mountain flying course last winter. The first one is a landing on a small bench just below the summit at about 7000' Classic mountain approach. The second one is a recce of the NE Arete of Mt Slesse. An airliner crashed into this peak in the late 50's and everyone perished. We were looking for the engines which are still there. The arete is one of the 50 classic climbs in North America.

 

Cool videos. I'd hate to have to do an auto in that environment!

[Wally]

Never autorotated a 212 to the ground, but a Huey is the easiest aircraft I ever autoed. Given that, the type's high blades and the fact the 212 is a twin, the biggest risk to the pax in the video is LTE or the pilot sneezing on short, short final.

[heli.pilot]

Never autorotated a 212 to the ground, but a Huey is the easiest aircraft I ever autoed. Given that, the type's high blades and the fact the 212 is a twin, the biggest risk to the pax in the video is LTE or the pilot sneezing on short, short final.

I'd heard that the Huey is easy to auto. I was told that it is not unusual to be able to set it down, pick it up, set it down, pick it up and set it back down again - doing a hover auto!! Unlike the "time it just right so you don't go splat" in an R-22!

 

My concern with having to do an auto, in those videos, is just the terrain. The aircraft itself might be easy to auto, but it sure doesn't look there is much in the way of spots to set her down.

[clay]

My concern with having to do an auto, in those videos, is just the terrain. The aircraft itself might be easy to auto, but it sure doesn't look there is much in the way of spots to set her down.

 

and?.......... welcome to the helicopter industry

[Whistlerpilot]

...the biggest risk to the pax in the video is LTE or the pilot sneezing on short, short final.

 

Hey Wally I got a good chuckle out of that one. Next time I'm out (weather looks good for Monday) I will ask the heliski pilot if he has ever aborted a landing because he had to sneeze!

 

Autos in my mountain videos would have been easy because there are thousands of feet under us. In the high alpine there are usually many options to put it down.

 

Low altitude over trees is another story. I was told you can flare hard just above tree height so you fall backwards into the canopy and that way the rotors don't beat the trees on the way down and the tail crumples under you to absorb the crash. Hope I never have to test this theory. I don't like flying over forest, autos would be inelegant.

 

I feel safer in most of the places we heliski than flying over a city. Unless there is a wide road with no cars or wires, or a football field it would be pretty desperate to auto into a built up area. I walk around all the time on the ground and look up and imagine how I would auto to the ground wherever I happen to be. My conclusion, fly as high as you safely can or else you have very limited options and got to take what's under you. Some are lucky and some aren't.

 

A pilot I worked with way up north this summer had an oil cooler fire which immediately burnt the hydraulic lines and then sucked into the compressor and caused a flame out. He had just put down a drill at the end of a 150' line when this happened. He managed to safely auto to the ground from 180' and no airspeed with no hydraulics on an A-Star. He is my hero!

 

I guess it's consolation that you are actually way more likely to crash your own helicopter because of pilot error than ever have the engine quit. I gotta work on never sneezing while flying!

[RkyMtnHI]

Whistler said:

 

"Autos in my mountain videos would have been easy because there are thousands of feet under us. In the high alpine there are usually many options to put it down. "

 

One of the things that surprised me in our flight to Leadville airport last summer was the amount of forced landing spots available... not the most desirable places to set a ship down, but many acceptable places to auto to. I was expecting nothing, but found tons.

 

in your videos of the 206 training, what altitude are you flying at, and how far to the ground?

 

i would also be interested in some info on your DA & OAT, and the 206's performance in those conditions. i.e., what are it's true limitations (summer and winter). i have been trying to decide on which ship to buy for our area, the 206 is pretty high on the list.

 

thanks,

 

dp

[RkyMtnHI]

Whistler said:

 

"I feel safer in most of the places we heliski than flying over a city. Unless there is a wide road with no cars or wires, or a football field it would be pretty desperate to auto into a built up area. I walk around all the time on the ground and look up and imagine how I would auto to the ground wherever I happen to be. My conclusion, fly as high as you safely can or else you have very limited options and got to take what's under you. Some are lucky and some aren't."

 

Totally agree about this statement, i get a little tightness in my seat when flying over any city, and spend a lot of time looking for spots... (One of the best things that i got from the Robbie course was advanced auto procedures which gave me a different prospective on hitting a spot. If you have not done autos with a very high time pilot that DOES AUTOS ON A REGULAR BASIS, i recommend you spent the time and $$ to make that happen, the Robbie course is a good way to do two things at once for about the same $$ that you'd spend on one hour of auto training).

 

i especially like the comment about looking from the ground up and planning autos into the area. many times i will pick a spot from the air and then visit it later only to find MANY things i didn't see from the air. Yeah, i know you would see them on short final, but would you have an option to avoid at that point??

 

aloha,

 

dp

[500E]

I suppose flaring hard over trees and going in tail first you are less likely to have a sharp stick come through the canopy as well.

 

Just a pic from my office, cant fly out of there to day due to sheep, and it looked nice anyhow,

 

 

[Goldy]

I suppose flaring hard over trees and going in tail first you are less likely to have a sharp stick come through the canopy as well.

 

Just a pic from my office, cant fly out of there to day due to sheep, and it looked nice anyhow,

 

 

brrrr. I prefer my office window...actually my bedroom window. Today is about 77 degrees.....ummm that's Fahrenheit boys...and ABOVE zero. Winds variable about 7-10 knots, visibility is a lil reduced now, limited at about 40 miles.

 

It would be tough, but I could go flying right now.

 

And that my friends, is why Whistler can't buy me a beer. I aint heading North for anything right now!

 

Goldy

[Whistlerpilot]

Hey Goldy,

 

It's stopped snowing now but still to cloudy to go flying. It has finally warmed up from our cold snap. I was out guiding one day this winter in -28. C, mercifully it was a light 10 kt wind so the wind chill was under -40. The helicopter performs well at those DA's, but it's a challenge to keep the windows from frosting up.

 

The videos were taken at about 7000' true altitude. Out highest landing was 8200' Chilliwack lake seen in the first one is around 1500' and valley bottoms in the area could be called 2000' So if you could auto to valley bottom it would be about 5000' down. I would not do that though, I would take the closest safe spot I could see. When you are up high in the alpine there are many spots to put it down, but valley bottom might be dense forest if you are unlucky.

 

That particular day was an early spring day, the temp at this altitude was around -3. That would put the DA at 5500'.

 

The 206 performs well at altitude, but you definitely want to use the HOGE charts for calculating how much weight you can carry if landing high. With a full load of pax you will be limited by how much fuel to carry. Flying the 206 at gross weight whatever the altitude is trickier. It would be really easy to over torque. I have had to use 95% torque just to get the machine in a hover with a 206 Long Ranger fully loaded with 6 pax. Doesn't give much wiggle room, and demands a cushion creep take-off. I could only get an hour of fuel on board and that was at under 1000' DA. More crucial than take-off is a good approach and landing when heavy like that. There is no room for error when it's marginal or not possible to hover OGE. My instructor did a lot of max gross weight training with me, and just a left pedal turn could over torque or cause rotor rpm droop when near the limits. The 206 is prone to LTE when at it's limits of high/hot/heavy. That being said it is an excellent helicopter and if you fly it within it's limits I think it's one of the safest out there.

 

I'm a little partial to the A-Star B2 (or B3) for mountain flying but it's at least a few years before I will get to fly one. RkyMtnHi, you will not go wrong with a 206 it's more how much money you have to spend. Even an A-Star BA will be 2 to 3 times the cost of an older Jet Ranger.

 

Tomorrow the weather improves and I get out heli skiing again instead of sitting by the computer!

[heli.pilot]

I feel safer in most of the places we heliski than flying over a city. Unless there is a wide road with no cars or wires, or a football field it would be pretty desperate to auto into a built up area. I walk around all the time on the ground and look up and imagine how I would auto to the ground wherever I happen to be. My conclusion, fly as high as you safely can or else you have very limited options and got to take what's under you.

 

I guess it's all about what you're used to, and what you fly. I fly an R-22 in built up areas all the time, so it just doesn't bother me that much. I'm always looking for forced landing spots, and there are plenty - parks, parking lots, roads, fields. Heck, a large back yard will work! I was assuming that there would be plenty of altitude available in the event of an auto in that kind of terrain, however I wasn't aware that there was much in the way of relatively flat spots to set down. I've never been up that way so I'm not familiar with the terrain. Apparently there are more flat spots than I was thinking, and more than there appear to be in the video. I agree about flying high. I know some guys that get nervous flying any higher than about 700' agl. I like to have options so (within reason) I like a little altitude. Flying over endless forrest makes me nervous - I tend to keep logging roads, creek beds or even power-line clearings within my glide range. Often the clearings around/under power lines are wide enough to allow a forced landing.

[Whistlerpilot]

Hey 500E, That photo's leaving you open to all those baaaaad sheep jokes.

 

Here's 2 more videos, I know which one I would would've rather autoed.

 

 

Flying in the McKenzie Mountains near the arctic circle.

 

 

 

Flying early morning over LA.

 

Edited January 11, 2009 by Whistlerpilot

[thrilsekr]

"Flying early morning over LA."

 

0:08 - 0:14

Don't you get in trouble for shooting at buildings?

[FredR]

Whistler,

I flew fires with a Kachina pilot who also flew heli-skiing in Canada. He was telling me some stories about the flying, approaches, winds etc. Pretty incredible. You'd better have nerves of steel. He loved that kind of flying and I'm sure that he has forgetten more about mountain flying than I'll ever know. Also, I've heard nothing but raving reviews about some of the mountain flying schools (one from a AMD instructor pilot) in Canada. Looks like excellent training.

 

I was looking at the last pic you posted and that 206 looks like an original 206L with the C-20 engine. Am I correct on that ID?

Fred

[Wally]

The sneezing line was meant to be levity, but there's a serious element as well- you close your eyes when you sneeze...

 

Regarding going into the trees- I've always heard the tail down zero airspeed descent proposed. I suspect it would get real random after the first impact, so zero and level, pull everything as one goes into the trees, and hang on would probly be my recomend.

I flew with a guy from "The PNG" (pronounced 'Pay-En-Jay' if you have a Kiwi speech impediment, meaning Papua-New Guinea) who claimed he'd give serious consideration to hooking a skid on the biggest tree he could find. I can't tell with Kiwis if he was having me on.

One of my classmates put a Huey in the trees in flight school. Came back with the expected scratches and bruises, but the insides of his legs all bruised up. He said he thought the IP was trying to roll it on his side, he'd try to roll it back, all the way down. Me, I think the cyclic lashes around pretty viciously as the main rotor hits stuff.

 

Back to the thread- Power in early and always have and use an abort plan, early, when 'expediting' landings. Pilot error is more dangerous than power failures, etc.

My second Gulf job was a hundred to hundred and fifty landings a day, and one got in a rhythm or wasted a lot of time- an extra minute per is two plus hours a day. Anyhow, last one of a long summer day, slammed the bank to button hook around onto a short final, collective down, roll out and pull power, something very wrong- the pads coming at me quick, quick! Realize I'm downwind, low, with a heck of descent going and will hit hard on a very short area- very bad, the bird will bounce off in a non-flying state, into the GoM.

Turning aside gives me extra altitude, but the NG has coasted way down (bad thing about some free turbine governors) in the decelerating descending turn, so when I pulled power the rotor drooped. Continue the turn into the wind and milking speed, NR/NG and attitude, I stay dry, go around and do the landing into the wind.

[Whistlerpilot]

Hey FredR,

 

The pic is of a 206 LR with the C20R engine. It is much better than the L1 which I've heard is a bit of a dog with the C20. Until you get the C30P either machine is under powered, but the LR is a money maker because it can do a lot more than a regular 206 and doesn't burn nearly as much fuel as the L3. The other base jet ranger we had was John Waynes original helicopter a 206A. I think it might have been SN 69. It was converted to a B and was a really nice ship. I loved flying it and thinking that the Duke had held the same cyclic.

 

Ya, Canada has a pretty long mountain flying history. It all started in the late forties with the original Bell 47's. Those early pilots were pioneers in learning how to fly in the mountains and passed on the knowledge to subsequent generations. They started the first mountain training school, the Bell guys, US military, etc... used to come up to Penticton BC for the course. My mountain course instructor started flying in the 50's and was one of that second generation of early pilots.

 

Here is the description of an interesting book about how it all started.

 

http://www.sononis.com/aut002.stm

 

Helicopters in the High Country

40 Years of Mountain Flying

Peter Corley-Smith co-authored with David N. Parker

 

Helicopter flying in the high country, pioneering new and dramatic techniques, brought fame and endless challenge to a small group of determined and innovative pilots in British Columbia and led the way towards a world-renowned reputation in commercial helicopter operations. Beginning with Okanagan Helicopters in the late 1940s and Vancouver Island Helicopters in the early 1950s, British Columbia helicopter companies led the world in flying the high country.

[Whistlerpilot]

Wally,

 

Thanks for that harrowing story to remind us to get the wind right. I totally agree a pilot mistake is way more likely than a power problem.

 

I really appreciate hearing from the experienced guys like you. You are right sneezing at the wrong time would be really bad. I've flown with heliski pilots who will not fly with a cold.

[FredR]

Whistler,

I thought I recognized the dual stack of a C20 in that pic. Most of the L1s that I've seen have been converted to the C30 from the C28 and I guess that is a pretty good ship. I've only flown the L3 and B3 Jet Ranger (well, and also the OH-58A/C) and while I agree that the C30 doesn't have to work too hard, the tail rotor is definitely putting in the overtime hours.

 

Thanks for the links to the different books. The one on helicopter mountain flying looks like a good read. Have a safe winter up in Canada.

Fred

[500E]

WhistlerP

 

What jokes I am a Welshman :lol:

[captkirkyota]

Ok, at the risk of feeling and looking stupid or at least forgetful of stuff I should prolly know, what is NG/NR? Am I really this forgetful of stuff I should know??

Seriously feeling inadequate of my CFI knowledge.....

Kirk.

[Darren Hughes]

NG- Gas producer turbine aka N1 tach

NR- Rotor Tach

 

It's not really CFI stuff but if you read Cyclic & Collective or some other books like that, it'll give you a good start for learning for your next step, aka "Turbine Ship".