Training costs

[clay]

what kind of prices are you guys seeing in the flight training world right now? with the drop in fuel, drop in the economy. We are in the 300C and just had a big price drop, just curious what other schools are doing. I remember when i did my flight training a few years back, i was paying 220/hr for an enstrom. curious to see what the rest of the market is doing

[MN Heli Flyer]

, just curious what other schools are doing.

 

 

I am curious also if there is a difference in cost for VFR training versus IFR training. I know a school that charges more for IFR training. I am confused as to why this would be? Their helicopter does not have to be subject to training abuse like hover autos, performance maneuvers, etc. Other than a little longer hovering to check instruments and preparing for flight, the rest of the training seems rather easy on the aircraft as we just fly around and do approaches.

 

Any comments are welcome.

[heli.pilot]

I am curious also if there is a difference in cost for VFR training versus IFR training. I know a school that charges more for IFR training. I am confused as to why this would be? Their helicopter does not have to be subject to training abuse like hover autos, performance maneuvers, etc. Other than a little longer hovering to check instruments and preparing for flight, the rest of the training seems rather easy on the aircraft as we just fly around and do approaches.

 

Any comments are welcome.

An IFR ship costs more to buy than a VFR ship, plus there are more instruments to break, this equates to more $$$ per hour to rent it. I agree that the type of flying is easier on the aircraft than VFR training that includes autos, hover autos, running landings, off airport operations etc. However, I don't know that "saving" the aircraft from these VFR-type training abuses equates to as much $$$ saved as the added purchase cost (or lease cost) of the IFR ship over the VFR ship.

 

I was paying $240 for VFR R22, and $250 for IFR R22. Those prices include fuel and instructor.

Edited January 10, 2009 by heli.pilot

[apiaguy]

alot depends on the helicopter and the operator... if the IFR ship has something fancy that the vfr ship doesn't.... say a G430 or HSI or something... then a little increase may be warranted. I would usually say that IFR training is crappy for the instructor and he should get more money for having to do it. I think it is just another way to get more money from the student. A new ship at say 250k and an IFR one at say 270K doesn't warrant $10, 20, or 30 more per hour... especially when the fuel burn in IFR training is probabally less than VFR.

[heli.pilot]

alot depends on the helicopter and the operator... if the IFR ship has something fancy that the vfr ship doesn't.... say a G430 or HSI or something... then a little increase may be warranted. I would usually say that IFR training is crappy for the instructor and he should get more money for having to do it. I think it is just another way to get more money from the student. A new ship at say 250k and an IFR one at say 270K doesn't warrant $10, 20, or 30 more per hour... especially when the fuel burn in IFR training is probabally less than VFR.

 

These numbers are simply for ease of calculation, but if a $250K VFR ship is worth $250/hr, why wouldn't a $270K IFR ship be worth $270/hr?

 

Also, none of the instructors I flew with expressed any dislike for IFR training. In fact several of them said they preferred it.

[MN Heli Flyer]

An IFR ship costs more to buy than a VFR ship, plus there are more instruments to break,

 

What heli-pilot said is true an IFR equipped aircraft costs more to purchase, however, I think the instruments are pretty reliable and don't need that much attention.

 

The school I trained at used the same helicopter for VFR and IFR training. They also had two different rates depending on what type of training you were doing. VFR one rate, IFR another rate.

 

I could see if they used the aircraft exclusively for one type of training to have a price associated with that type of training. I just don't understand why they feel they need two charge different rates for the same aircraft.

[heli.pilot]

What heli-pilot said is true an IFR equipped aircraft costs more to purchase, however, I think the instruments are pretty reliable and don't need that much attention.

 

The school I trained at used the same helicopter for VFR and IFR training. They also had two different rates depending on what type of training you were doing. VFR one rate, IFR another rate.

 

I could see if they used the aircraft exclusively for one type of training to have a price associated with that type of training. I just don't understand why they feel they need two charge different rates for the same aircraft.

 

I agree that the instruments should be reliable and not need that much attention. However, they are expensive when they do need repair or replacement, plus there are more instruments, so higher odds of having something go belly-up.

 

I have heard of schools that have one ship that they use for both IFR and VFR training, and yet charge different rates for each - and that I find tough to understand. I guess you could look at like you were getting a price break when flying VFR, rather than a price increase when flying IFR. Really the only way for the owner to cover their costs, and have one constant rate, would be to charge the IFR rate all the time.

[Goldy]

A new ship at say 250k and an IFR one at say 270K doesn't warrant $10, 20, or 30 more per hour...

 

Well, actually I think it probably does !

 

First off, you can't buy a brand new IFR equipped R22 any more. They stopped building them some time ago. The 15-20 K increase is definitely accurate, just the increased cost for a lease back is easily $10 per hour in added cost for the school.

 

Also, instrument is a more profitable segment of training...absolutely. How much money do you think the local grocery makes on a gallon of milk?? Not a lot, but that chocolate bar you buy for a buck just sold for 4 times their cost.

 

So, let the school try and make some money. I wouldnt think an extra 20/hour would be out of line for a nice IFR ship...the only other option is to train in the 44, and that costs a lot more than 10 or 20 an hour.

 

As far as costs, I think a B II in L.A. is going for about $230 PLUS instructor if needed, and a small surcharge for fuel.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Goldy

[clay]

ok? so im still curious as to what other places are charging for DUAL instruction lately. . .

[rotormandan]

The school I trained at charged a slightly higher price for IFR training. Partly because of the more qualified instructor. The instructor is for qualified than just a CFI so they get paid more on the inst. flights. I thought it was worth the extra $10 an hour.

 

The school I work at though charges the same for the inst. ship whether flying it VFR or IFR. I think it depends on the school.

 

I definitely think that an extra $10 or $20 is worth it and not very much especially in the scheme of things. Learning to fly helicopters the civilian route is expensive. One goes in knowing and expecting that so it shouldn't be a surprise when it starts costing $. Really for an instrument rating, say 40 hours at an extra $20 an hour is only $800 extra. That's not very much when compared to the 60k-80k one is paying for the whole Private - CFII. (with 200 hours for robbies)

[HeliNinja]

The school where I received my PPL charges $285 plus surcharge (fuel/tax?), totaling ~$299, for VFR in a 300C. Instrument is $385 plus surcharge, also in the 300C. They use the same bird for both VFR and IFR so I assume the extra $100 is for the higher level of instructor needed.

[deerock]

My buddy and I had been pricing rentals around LA area recently for 22 and 44's -- 22's from 190 (at Temco at KLGB but it might have been the target of that plane crash a few days ago?) to $240/hour PLUS instructor costs. All are wet.

I'm personally a fan of the 22's at LA Heli at KLGB, though a bit higher at 220/hr. They offer insurance and have one of the best mechanics out there who is also a partner in the company...meaning it's even more important to make those ships work beautifully. Plus he is frequently booked by other 22 owners for services/overhauls.

 

44's are expensive no matter where u rent - and most don't rent them out as they are DUAL only due to Pathfinder Insurance (ugh) limitations as mentioned in another post recently. But, Universal at KEMT rents an R44 Astro for 365/hr, which flies nicely. You need a strong arm for the collective (no hydraulics). They also have an IFR 22 for around 195/hr. In addition, they are getting a brand new heli simulator next month for more IFR training, etc.

[clay]

The school where I received my PPL charges $285 plus surcharge (fuel/tax?), totaling ~$299, for VFR in a 300C. Instrument is $385 plus surcharge, also in the 300C. They use the same bird for both VFR and IFR so I assume the extra $100 is for the higher level of instructor needed.

 

 

alot of places charge a fuel surcharge. i just wonder if it is dropping off with fuel prices, or they are seeing it as a way to keep charging the same.

[heli.pilot]

The school where I received my PPL charges $285 plus surcharge (fuel/tax?), totaling ~$299, for VFR in a 300C. Instrument is $385 plus surcharge, also in the 300C. They use the same bird for both VFR and IFR so I assume the extra $100 is for the higher level of instructor needed.

 

$100 an hour difference between IFR and VFR is quite a lot in my opinion. As mentioned earlier, I don't have an issue with some price difference between VFR and IFR, but $100 sure is a big difference - especially when it's the same ship!

 

I find the "higher level of instructor" argument a little tough to believe too, as there seems to be more CFII's than CFI's nowadays. Going all the way through CFII has become "par for the course", so to speak. I'd love to believe that I would be considered a "higher level of instructor" as a CFII, and perhaps paid more as a result, but alas....

[rotormandan]

You're right, it is probably more common for schools to hire CFII's as opposed to CFI. Regardless it required extra training for those applicants to get that rating which I guess equals more $ for an instrument lesson. VFR can be taught by any instructor(of course there are exceptions like an instructor with a CFII but not CFI) but you will need the instructor with the extra training to give you the extra training.

 

 

Now $100 extra is way to much extra especially if it's cheaper to do VFR in the same ship. That rules out any argument for higher cost due to lease/extra instruments. I don't see the CFII getting paid enough extra to constitute a $100 increase either.

 

Oh well though. What can you do? If people are paying that than there is no reason for a school to change that. No one ever said that learning to fly helicopters was going to be cheap, especially when going the civilian route.

Edited January 10, 2009 by rotormandan

[rotormandan]

I'd love to believe that I would be considered a "higher level of instructor" as a CFII, and perhaps paid more as a result, but alas....

 

You would be considered a higher level when compared to someone with only the CFI rating. You'd also be of more use to the company as you can now do more so therefore you'd probably get paid more. I doubt you'd get paid anymore than $1-$2 extra an hour though.

Edited January 10, 2009 by rotormandan

[Goldy]

My buddy and I had been pricing rentals around LA area recently for 22 and 44's -- 22's from 190 (at Temco at KLGB but it might have been the target of that plane crash a few days ago?) to $240/hour PLUS instructor costs. All are wet.

I'm personally a fan of the 22's at LA Heli at KLGB, though a bit higher at 220/hr. They offer insurance and have one of the best mechanics out there who is also a partner in the company...meaning it's even more important to make those ships work beautifully. Plus he is frequently booked by other 22 owners for services/overhauls.

 

 

Deerock-being from the L.A. area I can tell you that LA Heli is a good choice. Not because I have been thru their training as I have not...they have experienced owners and I can't say enough about Mike's ethics and service. Yes, they have a great mechanic as well..

 

Nothing bad about Temco, they teach a lot of foreign students...the recent crash was a FW student...probably enough said as NTSB is doing the investigation. I doubt it was anything that they did or didnt do...anyway the one issue is they have one R22, I think its a Beta..and it flies a lot, I mean more than any ship I have ever seen..so getting time booked might be an issue.

 

BTW, one of the schools nearby teaches in 300's and charges $250/hr plus instructor, block rate VFR.

 

Goldy

[Hedge36]

BTW, one of the schools nearby teaches in 300's and charges $250/hr plus instructor, block rate VFR.

 

 

Please, do tell. Relocating soon...

[coloheli]

I wonder with fuel prices slated to go back up this year if most schools will wont just wait to see what the next six months bring. To add to Clay, has anyone seen a significant drop(spelled it right this time clay) in enrollment?

[Goldy]

 

Please, do tell. Relocating soon...

 

 

Hedge- You have a PM

 

Clay- I stand corrected. The best price I found in LA was 285/hr for a 300C, not 250. Guess its been awhile!

 

One other school is at 295. Both include fuel/ extra charge for instructor of course. The school at 285 charges 65 an hour for the instructor! Wow, what a concept !!

 

Goldy

[clay]

were doing 299/ or 10 hrs @ 285 including everything. no surcharge. I think im noticing a trend talking to some CFI's around the country. schools that own the ships seem to be significantly cheaper in comparison to schools that do lease backs from people. the ones who own them can play with the rate they want, where as the leasebacks are obligated to pay "x" amount to the aircraft owner, therefore they want to charge more to try and make some profit.

[Hedge36]

were doing 299/ or 10 hrs @ 285 including everything. no surcharge. I think im noticing a trend talking to some CFI's around the country. schools that own the ships seem to be significantly cheaper in comparison to schools that do lease backs from people. the ones who own them can play with the rate they want, where as the leasebacks are obligated to pay "x" amount to the aircraft owner, therefore they want to charge more to try and make some profit.

 

You need to tell Nick to get off his duff and start flying, then.

[Hedge36]

Here's where I'm currently flying. The chief instructor is now the owner and has two R22s (one instrument) available at $210 +$40 dual. Former Huey driver and Army instructor.

 

I believe he's still offering a $6K block at 10% off.

 

http://midwesternhelicopter.com/rates.htm

[Goldy]

http://midwesternhelicopter.com/rates.htm

 

I'd love to see some examples that met the "ugliness" surcharge ! Maybe a Brantley? ( ouch, ooh, that one is gonna hurt !!)

 

Goldy

[Hedge36]

I'd love to see some examples that met the "ugliness" surcharge ! Maybe a Brantley? ( ouch, ooh, that one is gonna hurt !!)

 

Goldy

 

I ride a BMW 1200GS Adventure... ugly as it is, my monthly storage rate is quite flat.

 

Everything else is a breeze