Helicopter rental after training!? Does your school rent out it's helos?

[beckwith]

why wouldn't you want the checkride? Especially if you haven't flown in a while. I have a SCUBA cert but it wouldn't be safe for me to go down without a refresher even if I have a card that says I can. Even with a commercial or a CFI why wouldn't you take the checkout when renting?

[bossman]

Our insurance requires 10 hours with one of our instructors prior to renting to someone that is not our student or has not been a part of our organization. That includes the 40 hr. PPL up to the 10,000 hr. ATP. The industry is at the mercy of the insurance companies.

[Witch]

Guys, I think you're missing my point here. I'm not against the checkride thing, I'm against the idea that unless one is a student, the aircraft won't be rented. If a company wants to go that route, then go for it. My thought about that is I find that to be a stupid business decision on the part of the owner, especially if the owner is needing revenue to pay the insurance.

 

My thought on the rental part is that I think the checkride is a waste of time for all involved. However, if the company wants, or is required by the insurance company, to have a checkride, then fine, I have no problem with that either.

 

Please don't get confused by what I think and what I accept. I think the checkride is stupid, but I'll accept it.

 

Later

[heli.pilot]

I agree with Jehh - A private license is absolutely a license to learn.

 

Heck for that matter, a CFI license is a license to learn! Getting your CFI enables you to work for a flight school so that you can both teach AND LEARN.

 

If you don’t think you still have a LOT to learn after getting your private, you still have a lot to learn!

 

Hey Witch, I'm not trying to be rude - but why do you have 220 total and only 20 PIC?

[Witch]

I have a lot of airplane time from the 80's.

 

Airplanes are easier to fly too.

 

Later

 

Oh, I still take offense to the "license to learn" comment too.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Witch

[heli.pilot]

Witch, sorry that the "license to learn" comment offends you, it's just the way that I see it. Honestly, I think it's how the industry sees it. That's why very few commercial operators will hire a pilot who has a commercial license until they have at least 1000 hours. The applicant may have their commercial license, but they are considered "still learning" due to limited flight experience.

 

I have more than the 140 hours you have in R-22's, but I don't take offense at someone suggesting that I'm still learning. I have my CFI and CFII and I'm not afraid to admit that I still have a lot to learn. I don't fight it, I WANT to keep learning!

[Tom22]

When I hear the old adage "license to learn" I think in infers that when one attains a pilot certificate it should motivate them to sharpen their skills and to continue their education. It means go for more ratings, fly different types of aircraft, and read more literature. For example, when you are done reading the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook or Wagtendonk’s Principles of Helicopter Flight pick up a copy of Principles of Helicopter Aerodynamics by J. Gordon Leishman. You will be amazed by the theory and analysis that you didn’t get in flight school. It is an engineering textbook and good for anybody that would like be informed.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Tom22

[ChprPlt]

Private really is a license to learn. You may not see that now but you will as you gain more experience. I've got over 1000 PIC and am a much better pilot then I was even at 700 PIC. 40 hours in a helicopter...thats nothing. The thought that people stop training at private is scary.

[jehh]

I have to disagree with the both of you.

 

And that is why I like this forum so much, we can have a civil discussion and disagree with each other while still having a good time and respecting everyone.

 

Goldy, I have 20 hours PIC, and 220 total, 140 in R-22. That alone must tell you something about my ability to pilot an aircraft to the point where a checkride may be a waste of time for both involved.

 

It doesn't tell me anything, my opinion is that logbooks are generally a poor indicator of skill and experience.

 

This is why you'll go on an interview flight for each job you apply for, they don't much care what you have written in your logbook, they want to see if you can really fly.

 

Jehh, I take offense to this. It takes a whole lot of skill and knowelege to getting a private certificate. MUCH MORE than a driver license.

 

Perhaps, but you're still very new at it and do not yet know what you don't know. Even now at 200 hours you still don't know what you don't know. And that will remain true at 1,000 hours as well.

 

I do not recall if you have your CFI yet or not, but I can tell you from experience that you'll find out after 100 hours of dual given that you were still clueless when you passed your CFI checkride.

 

But let's look at that for a moment. Who teaches one to operate a car? Ones parents? Friends? Crazy uncle Ned who is out from the psych ward for the weekend?

 

I went to school to learn to drive, that is what Drivers Ed is for. Took 6 weeks of 2 classroom lessons per week plus driving practice.

 

And yes, I still didn't know what I was doing and still had a wreck when I was 17.

 

My kids will have a lot more driving training than I did.

 

As for the rental, again, even if the minimum age is 25, what about the experience of the one who has a poor record, speeds, drives drunk, or is letting his 15 year old learn how to drive from his crazy uncle Ned. How many of those cars get driven hard? How many of those cars get damaged? How many of those cars get totaled? Gee, is that why they have insurance?

 

It doesn't make the news when a rental car gets in an accident and the name of the rental company doesn't end up in the news even if it does.

 

The rental car company has volume, flight schools do not. If you crash one of my helicopters you are removing a substantial revenue stream until it is replaced, I have a large deductible, and loss of reputation. The rental car company has none of those problems.

 

I do have a clue, and I do understand their position when it comes to rentals. I understand wholeheartedly. My position is that if someone doesn't rent to others unless they're students or former students, then I think that is stupid on their part.

 

You're welcome to that opinion. As I said, you are also welcome to go buy a helicopter and rent it out on any terms you care for. The view is always different on the other side of the desk.

 

I know you may find my logic irrational or illogical. I assure you I have experienced similar conditions in other aspects of my meager existance, from school, the military, driving truck, and attempting to start a business. The political and economic beliefs I now hold don't jibe well with the societal norm of the day.

 

If you're ever in Dallas, the beer is on me, it will be an interesting conversation to say the least.

 

I guess this is why it irks me when others can't grasp the reasons I think the way I do. Maybe it's because I'm old. But don't get me wrong for fraks sake. I understand what you say, and I respect your opinion, and I'd like to buy a copter and rent it out, and I'd rent to anybody that has a few hours under their belt.

 

Actually, I do understand why you think the way you do. And for some people it does make sense. From my point of view, it doesn't. At the end of the day, we each do what makes the most sense from our own points of view.

 

Keep in mind that many schools don't rent period, those that do more or less all require some type of training or checkout flight. That didn't happen by accident.

 

I'd also have the insurance if that pilot happens to ball up the aircraft. Between my model and the non-renting model, I bet I'd make a few more dollars.

 

Yes, you would make a few more dollars, however you're also accepting more risk. If your deductible is $25,000, are you making enough money in profit to cover that in the event an aircraft is destroyed?

 

Looking at it strictly as a business, it often doesn't make sense to rent out the helicopters for that reason alone.

 

Fly Safe!

[jehh]

Guys, I think you're missing my point here. I'm not against the checkride thing, I'm against the idea that unless one is a student, the aircraft won't be rented. If a company wants to go that route, then go for it. My thought about that is I find that to be a stupid business decision on the part of the owner, especially if the owner is needing revenue to pay the insurance.

 

You'd think so, but I can save about 10% on my insurance bill by cutting out rental coverage.

 

The question becomes, do I earn enough profit off rentals to cover that cost, or am I actually losing money renting aircraft because there isn't enough of that business to pay for the extra insurance.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Guys, I think you're missing my point here. I'm not against the checkride thing, I'm against the idea that unless one is a student, the aircraft won't be rented. If a company wants to go that route, then go for it. My thought about that is I find that to be a stupid business decision on the part of the owner, especially if the owner is needing revenue to pay the insurance.

 

My thought on the rental part is that I think the checkride is a waste of time for all involved. However, if the company wants, or is required by the insurance company, to have a checkride, then fine, I have no problem with that either.

 

Please don't get confused by what I think and what I accept. I think the checkride is stupid, but I'll accept it.

 

Later

 

First you said you are not against the checkrides. Then you said they are a waste of time? Then say if it is required you have no problem with it? I am confused.

 

Anyway, most if not all flight operators(schools,FBOs,renters) won't let a pilot rent a plane or helicopter without at the minimum a check out flight. If I was that operator I would do the same thing. There is a lot of money tied up in that aircraft. Not just cost of repair or replacement should something happen but lost revenue as well. That is a huge risk for an industry which already has a very narrow profit margin if one at all. It's also not just to see if the pilot is safe. It is also to get the pilot used to the aircraft they may be renting. Many have different panel lay outs, some are glass some are steam gauges and more.

 

For most pilots its not an issue because most end up renting from where they trained at. In that case the school already knows that pilot well. Other pilots coming from out of town will have a harder time, but not much. Just a quick check out.

 

These operators just think the risk of an incident out weighs the lost revenue of someone not wanting to do a check out. I can't blame them.

 

I have to the Private is just a license to learn. That is something you will realize further down the road just as I did. You are right though we can't really compare learning to fly with learning to drive. Learning to and flying is a lot harder than driving. That is why there are more restrictions on it.

 

It is what it is, what can we do?

[Goldy]

Witch- I can usually warp my mind around to try and see anothers point of view. I think one piece of what you are saying can be boiled down to this.

 

Why do they allow a student pilot to fly the aircraft ( he might have 20TT and 2 hours solo), but its not ok to rent it to someone with a private cert and say 100 hours TT.

 

I guess the answer is an hour of time is not an hour of time, and I KNOW the guy and the level of training and the CFI that signed him off...even if he only has 2 hours of solo time total.

 

Whereas, you walk in the door, and I dont have a clue where you trained, or what you were taught.

 

And that answers one of lifes' questions:

 

It's not WHAT you know, it's WHO you know !!

 

PS, you coming down to HeliExpo ??

 

Fly safe,

 

Goldy

[Witch]

Dude, I'm unemployed and getting almost half in unemployment of what I got working. I can barely afford to stay current.

 

Hopefully one of these trillions of applications and resumes will do the trick and get me an interview. I got one from Kingsford, the charcoal people, but I guess someone else had better qualifications. Nuts!

 

In the meantime, I'm waiting for the Spring term to go to school for a commercial portion. Next fall is instrument.

 

Wanna hear something that'll getcha sayin "Wha?" My wife works at the college, and as a benefit, her immediate family members-read me-gets free tuition. I still have to pay fees and all, but it costs a whole lot less.

 

Anyhow, I agree that the rental thing is the way it is for a reason, I just don't agree it has to be.

 

I'm done.

 

Later

[svtcobra66]

I've got to wonder about the quality of training some of you guys received if you're uncomfortable with passengers after your private rating...The whole point is that you can take passengers, and while you won't be as skilled as a 2000 hour ATP you should still be able to get it down in one piece, you should be comfortable with autos of various types, and you should be used to all kinds of airspace. If not, maybe you went to the wrong school...

 

And most schools will require a checkout to rent unless they're crazy, as insurance would require this, and rental coverage is typically included as schools coverage is for Instruction & Rental unless they cut some sort of deal with the insurance company, which is pretty rare. Also, schools I've been to prefer to fly with people who haven't rented in awhile before letting them go up by themselves, just to make sure they're proficient.

[clay]

I've got to wonder about the quality of training some of you guys received if you're uncomfortable with passengers after your private rating...The whole point is that you can take passengers, and while you won't be as skilled as a 2000 hour ATP you should still be able to get it down in one piece, you should be comfortable with autos of various types, and you should be used to all kinds of airspace. If not, maybe you went to the wrong school...

 

And most schools will require a checkout to rent unless they're crazy, as insurance would require this, and rental coverage is typically included as schools coverage is for Instruction & Rental unless they cut some sort of deal with the insurance company, which is pretty rare. Also, schools I've been to prefer to fly with people who haven't rented in awhile before letting them go up by themselves, just to make sure they're proficient.

 

 

I know where you trained, and have seen you fly! there is no way in hell i would rent an A/C to you....

[jehh]

I've got to wonder about the quality of training some of you guys received if you're uncomfortable with passengers after your private rating...The whole point is that you can take passengers, and while you won't be as skilled as a 2000 hour ATP you should still be able to get it down in one piece, you should be comfortable with autos of various types, and you should be used to all kinds of airspace. If not, maybe you went to the wrong school...

 

Using that same arguement, a fresh private pilot should be ok flying from California to Flordia, the day after the checkride.

 

A pilot certificate is a license to learn, it is just like getting your drivers license at 16, except that most new pilots are a bit older and wiser than that. Most new drivers generally shouldn't have young passengers either until they get more experience, and flying a helicopter is a lot harder than driving a car.

[svtcobra66]

I understand it's a license to learn, so is every license, and if you ever stop learning you probably won't last very long. But I think the fundamentals should be there after a PVT rating, I know I never signed anyone off who I doubted could safely return a passenger in a variety of conditions. It's not like they're going to be doing platform landings on a skyscraper in the middle of Class B airspace. Atleast I hope not.

 

And Clay, I know who your instructor was too...