Private vs Commercial rating

Cowboydave157 · March 9, 2009

I had also placed the post on justhelicopters

I own a small business that sells electrical connectors. I have a number of suppliers that are located within 150 miles of my location. I often have them ship product to me by UPS. The average order is not bulky and weighs about 75-100 pounds.

If I have a Private rating, can I have my company rent a Helicopter that I would then use to pick-up my product ?

My thought is that if my company pays the renatal charges, I get the hours and it is an expense to my company?

Will this fly? LOL

FlyNHighNFast · March 9, 2009

If you own the company and it is a sole proprietorship, then it should fly just fine.

apiaguy · March 9, 2009

Sure, you can do that... but you'll need to be a little more coy going about it. If you inform the rental company what you're doing they'll probabally tell you they don't want you to do that. This is a tricky area... that many will tell you no on... especially if you go asking questions and getting input from random people... especially the faa. Be careful on how you explain the flight.. read the far's and do a little research and you can get it to work.

Jeff · March 9, 2009

I had also placed the post on justhelicopters

I own a small business that sells electrical connectors. I have a number of suppliers that are located within 150 miles of my location. I often have them ship product to me by UPS. The average order is not bulky and weighs about 75-100 pounds.
If I have a Private rating, can I have my company rent a Helicopter that I would then use to pick-up my product ?
My thought is that if my company pays the renatal charges, I get the hours and it is an expense to my company?
Will this fly? LOL

You'll need a Commercial Pilot Certificate to perform that operation. What you will be able to avoid is a 135 certificate since it is all corporate.

~Jeff

AngelFire_91 · March 9, 2009

Jeff, I'm courious why you say he would need a Commercial? If he rents the aircraft and pays for it, for a flight that is incidental to his business (in short meaning he could drive his car to pick them up if he so chose) then a commercial shouldn't be required. Now If his business was a partnership, and the company rented the aircraft, then asked him to fly it. Now we are needing a Commercial...

This is of course a grey area as always, and even if you had a commercial it still is grey area. Just cause you have a commercial doesn't mean you can get paid to fly. I know, sounds contradictory, but it's true. If you really want to know, ask AOPA's legal department, they are always willing to answer my questions about this kind of stuff. Still doesn't mean you're legal, it just helps to have someone back you up sometimes.

Jeff · March 9, 2009

Jeff, I'm courious why you say he would need a Commercial? If he rents the aircraft and pays for it, for a flight that is incidental to his business (in short meaning he could drive his car to pick them up if he so chose) then a commercial shouldn't be required. Now If his business was a partnership, and the company rented the aircraft, then asked him to fly it. Now we are needing a Commercial...

My reasoning is that shipping parts from his supplier to his business--parts that are integral to the operation of his business--is not incidental. If he were to rent the helicopter on behalf of his business to fly to a trade show to drum up more business or find better suppliers or whatever, then something like that would be incidental.

My advice would be for him to write a letter to the local FSDO explaining his situation and what he is doing. If they pay him a "friendly" visit, then I am right. If they shrug their shoulders and throw the letter away, then I will admit I'm wrong.

~Jeff

slick1537 · March 9, 2009

Chances are if it sounds like it may be against regulation, the FAA will interpret it like it is against regulation.

MLH · March 11, 2009

Cowboy,

I used to do it all the time with my business before I earned my commercial rating. I rented a 500 to service a mountaintop repeater site leased by the business and paid for the rental with a company check. As the owner of the business, how could I hire myself?

Now, Taking compensation for flying someone not related to my business to the site or, delivering parts there for a company other than my own is a different matter because it would not be considered incidental to my business.

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs ( through (g) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

( A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

Mike

Jeff · March 11, 2009

Cowboy,

I used to do it all the time with my business before I earned my commercial rating. I rented a 500 to service a mountaintop repeater site leased by the business and paid for the rental with a company check. As the owner of the business, how could I hire myself?

Mike,

Getting yourself to a job site to perform the essential function of your business sounds like something incidental to your business, and therefore should only require a Private Certificate. Your use sounds more clear-cut than the original poster's. Just my opinion.

~Jeff

AngelFire_91 · March 11, 2009

I would check with someone with more authority over the matter then me.. But I guess I don't see what the big deal is with renting a helicopter, paying for it my self and flying somewhere to pick up a product for myself, when I could either have it shipped, rent a car and pick it up, taken a train, or even a boat, that I would be paying for myself anyway. So basically I need a Commercial certificate because I bought a thingymajjiger from Stuffareus and I want to go pick it up with a rented helicopter instead of having them ship it? What about if I intend to sell the thingymajjiger later, does it matter?

I'm not trying to argue or put anyone down, just sparking insightful conversation.

MLH · March 11, 2009

I rarely use my AOPA legal service so, I called and posed Cowboy's question verbatim.

I got a quick and simple answer, there's no problem with what he wants to do because the activity is incidental to his business. 61.113 paragraph b

Regards,

Mike

Cowboydave157 · March 13, 2009

Thank all of you for your great comments.

Mike,

The one area that had me concerned was

2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

Since I would be carrying product that I would later on sell. I was concerned that the FAA would take issue with that.

Or, I could read the same sentence to mean that I was not being compensated to transport cargo.

Thank you for making the call for me.

I am sure that if the IRS every audited my books, they would question why I spent $600 to rent a helicopter to pick up product, when I could have used UPS for $35.00. However, I don't think they could reject the expense.

MLH · March 13, 2009

Cowboy,

Glad to help out.

"I am sure that if the IRS every audited my books... "

Yech, another draconian three letter government agency!

Regards,

Mike

Gomer Pylot · March 13, 2009

IMHO:

Delivering parts is not what the business does, so delivering the parts is incidental to the business. If his business was delivering parts, then a commercial certificate would be required, and almost certainly a Part 135 certificate. In this case, it's all incidental.

I don't see how the IRS could decide how critical the delivery time of the parts was to the business. Lots of companies use helicopters to deliver parts, especially offshore. I've flown literally hundreds of flights delivering parts to offshore platforms, some of which sat where I put them for weeks. I don't see a problem with the proposed operations, but the FAA sometimes does weird things. The worst they could do, though, would be to suspend the private certificate for a period of time, almost certainly no more than 6 months, so it's not a huge risk in any case.