Decision time! :(

[Basher]

I troll these boards as often as possible, and while I try to keep a positive attitude about things, it's hard to do so with all the doom and gloom regarding the economy as of late. And it's left me with a big decision to make.

 

I went for my medical last September or so, and passed the physical part with flying colors. However, the mental part was an issue (before you suggest a restraining jacket and padded walls, allow me to explain! ). I suffered from a slight case of winter depression while serving up in the Detroit, MI area. I'm from AZ, so going from sunshine 350 or so days a year to spending 4 months at a time with little to no sunshine was a killer. As a result, I saw a few doctors to resolve the issue (which is now gone, and has been for nearly 9 months). Of course, I reported this on the form, so my medical got shipped of to the FAA offices, where it spend 3 months (!!!) getting reviewed. After those three months, I got a letter stating that they wanted the reports from the doctors I visited up in the Detroit area. I supplied them. Another month goes by, and I get another letter with the requirements I'd have to pass to get a medical. Basically, I have to get all sorts of test taken to verify I'm "stable."

 

The phsycologist I'm seeing says the FAA's bending me over the table and shafting me hard here. He explained this by saying that he isn't required to issue even half of the test the FAA wants me to take when he's working a legal case to determine for a court of law if someone is mentally stable and sane or not. He pointed out that the requirements page was last updated in 1996. Regardless, I realized I wanted to fly YEARS ago, so I started the tests. All told, I'll be out nearly $2,000 of my own hard earned cash, since insurance doesn't cover issues that aren't existant.

 

That leaves me hanging here. I've paid the $100 for the medical, and I'm $600 into the test, with appointments for most of the rest. After dropping that kind of cash, I'm highly inclined to continue pursuing a career as a pilot. The issue here is all the things I've been reading. Loans are very difficult to get right now, even though I was planning to get my flight training taken care of in conjunction with a BA from UVU. And even if I did get the money for all of my flight training (I'm going through CFII), would there even be a job for me afterwards? I know there are lots of people out of work and looking for jobs, so competition is fierce. That being said, I'm willing to work for this. But not if it will simply be an $80K hobby when I'm done!

 

So I suppose I'm wondering what the Vertical Reference publc thinks. Are we being told the truth in regards to there being a big need for heli pilots in 5 years or so, or is that smoke and mirrors from flight schools that is being measured out to keep customers who can afford to fly? I realize that any profession will have stiff competition in this state of the economy, but there are other things I could do that would be more financially stable, even at the risk of having to abandon my biggest dream. I'm still a young guy (23), so I'm still learning (albeit quickly) that sometimes that's how life works. You may have a dream you're willing to work yourself to death for, but sometimes it's just not realistic. And I'm willing to work myself to near extinction, if needed, but survival does come first. Dead people don't fly often, at least not as PIC! And I'd ruin my credit for quite some time if I paid for training through CFII and then never used it and had to work a low-income job for 20 years to get by. If I HAD to, I could learn F/W stuff for now, but even that would only be an expensive hobby as well, since I feel there isn't nearly as much of a market for F/W guys as they may be for us rotorheads. What say you all to my rantings?

[Grant B]

I haven't posted in this forum for ages.

It occurs to me that maybe you are too honest for your own good.

With `depression' - it is important to talk about it obviously - especially if it is potentially dangerous to you or others.

However - mentioning it to authorities could of course cost you time, money or opportunities.

(Especially if it is possibly simply based on home sickness and hating the weather, ie. not so extreme.)

It's delightful to be honest - but sometimes you screw yourself for being so.

 

(I say this about society, opportunities in general, not just aviation)

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Darren Hughes]

Basher, Like Grant B says, you are too honest for your own good. You basically just gave a bunch of bureaucrats reason to cover their asses by ordering you to jump through lots of extra hoops in order to pass the medical.

 

If you consider yourself a risk to yourself or others by being allowed to fly or if that is the opinion of your mental health professional then by all means, either stay away from aviation and/or tell the absolute truth on the medical.

 

Everyone gets down from time to time. But, in my opinion you showed a level head and pretty healthy frame of mind by seeking help before your "blues" got out of hand. Knowing what I know now about the medical certificate process, if I had an issue with anything, I would get it sorted out, get back to a clean bill of health and get on with my life and career.

 

Regarding the industry, a quick search on this forum will tell you that the Vietnam era pilots retiring story is a half true sales pitch that schools who want to be "honest" without giving you all the facts use. You will be in for some tough times ahead, the start of every career is tough and aviation is no different. If you think that tough times will get you down, then don't do it. But if you think the juice is worth the squeeze and you can keep yourself encouraged throughout the struggle then go for it.

[apiaguy]

If you decided to go to a doctor because you were depressed then you deserve to get strung out by the faa. Too many people looking for medication these days to solve their problems. If you are serious about being a pilot you may be able to turn things around and it will only cost you some extra money like you said. If you are wishy washy you will quit this "profession". If you try hard to succeed and never give up you can enjoy mediocre pay in a fun career. If that doesn't sound fun then do something else.

[Miloe]

Sort of a counter point...

Lets say you mentioned nothing on your medical application, it passed, you spent a truckload of money and trained...

Now it's a couple of years later and you've found that first real paying pilot job and some paperpusher notices this discrepency on your medical forms...

Presto, your medical is revoked, the job disappers and you're now trying to explain that you didn't lie on your medical application so you don't end up facing legal charges over it...

 

Ya the hoops bit stinks now but it could be a whole lot worse later.

[goromadgo]

If you decided to go to a doctor because you were depressed then you deserve to get strung out by the faa. Too many people looking for medication these days to solve their problems. If you are serious about being a pilot you may be able to turn things around and it will only cost you some extra money like you said. If you are wishy washy you will quit this "profession". If you try hard to succeed and never give up you can enjoy mediocre pay in a fun career. If that doesn't sound fun then do something else.

 

To scold someone for seeking help before a medical issue gets serious is ridiculous. After being in Alaska for 3 years I can tell you it does get pretty depressing waking up to pitch black, going out to lunch...pitch black, coming home at night...yep still pitch black. I'm a California boy too so it took its toll. Did I need meds to help me through it? No, but many people did. Some turned to alcohol. The point is don't judge someone when you don't know what they are going through. Who knows, maybe he did just want some pills. Still not your place, IMHO.

 

As for the original poster it is time to figure out what YOU want to do. You'll get a different opinion from every person in here and in the end it is only going to affect you. I got hooked on flying almost two years ago and I got my PPL a few days ago (no it didn't take that long to train, just to get started!) and don't regret the decision yet. I passed up a good paycheck and steady job for an unknown future because this is what I want to do for a career. You got one shot at life, so I'm doing what I want to do. Enough with the pep talk, take the time to think it out from a financial standpoint and also with what you want to accomplish in life and then make your own decision. Good luck!

[rodrop]

Follow your heart. If you spend the money and end up not getting a good paying flying job...you may just be like other people who do the same thing...even if they dont have medical challenges documented or not. If you dont follow thru on your dreams... you will always wonder....

 

Decisions are just decisions, people categorize them as right and wrong most of the time...but really..they are just decisions.. not necessarily right or wrong... just takes you in a different direction then the other decision.

[ADRidge]

First off, I agree with the folks who said you might have been a bit too honest for your own good, however you took the high road and that is to be commended in my view. Secondly, I did some paperwork hurdles for my medical and frankly if you want it bad enough, you'll get it. Thirdly, and probably my last point.... this is about the least BS you'll have to go through to live your dream.

 

I'll be 25 in a few days and I've been working at this whole flying thing for two years. I've learned that it's thankless, the jobs are much more scarce than flight schools would have you believe and that this helicopter stuff is not for the faint of heart. I'm not talking about training either. My rough estimation is that there are some 300-500 CFI/CFII's at or below 1000 hours looking for the same 10-20 jobs, two of which are advertised and may or may not be filled. Them's the breaks. Take it or leave it.

 

Sure, there's a demand for pilots. But the demand, as I understand it, is for guys who have more than 5,000 hours in helicopters and who know their way around twins or a 150' longline. The industry is saturated with 1000 hour wonders (or in my case, 160 hour wonders) and finding a job for the next few years is gonna be rough. Plan for bestbuy, hope for an instruction job. Also, realistically dropping 2000 or so on tests is a drop in the bucket to the 60k you'll drop on flight training anyway.

 

My advice is this: if you haven't completed college, do so. I know it's a drag, but that's my best option after I drop 60k on flight training. Flight training loans run (when I checked) 50k@14% variable over 20 years. Basically 160k-ish by the time all is said and done. I haven't done the math, but federal loans to finish my college education (2 years) run less than 20k at whatever federal student loans are charging.... something like 4%-ish. When all is said and done you and I will likely be competing for that same Starbucks job anyway.

[Basher]

Hahaha, thanks for the replie so far, folks. I got a laugh out of a few of them (more on that in a minute).

 

Grant and Darren,

 

Perhaps I AM too honest. But I'm siding with Miloe on this one. When I read that medical form, it stated that I was to inform the FAA of any medical visits I had made in the past three years. Had I thought quickly enough (and not been so eager to get in the air), I could have just walked out of the AME's office, waited three years, and gotten by just fine, and bought some time to find out what the industry was going to do. But I'm young and stupid, and wanted things now, I suppose. Also, take into account the fact that the medical form is a FEDERAL form, and it states at the bottom (just below where you sign it, mind you) that any incorrect or falsified information could lead to a HEFTY fine and YEARS in prison, so losing my license and form of income would be the least of my worries if somebody found out. As Miloe said, better the issue now, then the issue later (which would involve more than just me, at that point. I'd have a family to feed!). So, that's why I stated it on my medical.

 

Apiaguy,

 

I have to admit the entertainment I got from this thread was largely from you! The reason for that is quite simple. I'm not a druggie of any form. I had dreams of law enforcement as a kid, so I've kept myself clean as as whistle. And while my religious beliefs dictate that I do not partake of alcohol, tobacco, or other illicit drugs, I wouldn't partake of them even if my beliefs DIDN'T dictate that. Why? Because I don't like to surrender my ability to think for myself to some pill or other substance. I never have, and I never will. I think enjoying a night in a bar for $50-100 bucks worth of booze and then driving drunk because I was too wasted to know better, and then killing someone as a result of an accident, is pure foolishness.

 

As such, I did NOT go to a doctor seeking pills. To be honest (as if the alcohol and tobacco statement didn't make it clear, ), I was serving a mission for the LDS church, and was directed by my mission president (who was in charge and responsible for my well being) to seek a counselor and a doctor to get the issue resolved, and of course I thought that was fine. I was tired of the way things were and wanted them resolved, so I manned up and did what needed doing. I didn't want pills, but unfortunately that was my option. Either that, or quit the mission and come home. And because I'm not a quiter, I did what I had to. Do I think the pills helped? Nope. I think the counselor I later saw was the thing that pushed me over and got me thinking straight. He was a pilot, so we saw eye to eye, and he really pushed me to overcome the issue and realize that I would only have to deal with the weather for a relatively short period of time. I go agree with you, though, that too many people push pills as a way to "fix people's problems" these days, and I'm against that.

 

Rodrop,

 

That heli section on MyTransponder is really slow. Perhaps we'll have to change that (Nick R. here)? Anyway, I'm in the process of deciding whether or not I could live without following this specific path. I realize there are LOTS of other, MUCH higher paying careers, but not many of them appeal to me. So I'm doing a little soul searching to see if I can find one that does appeal, and then perhaps I could just learn heli's down the road when I've got some play money, if that ever happens.

 

ADRidge,

 

I'm in the process of applying for college this next fall. If anything, I've learned that a college degree will get me MUCH farther in life than those who do not have one. So that's high on the list, if not at the top. We'll see what life dishes out for me as I gain the formal education, and perhaps some doors will open up for me, who knows.

 

Anyway, I appreciate the comments. If there are any others out there, feel free to spit 'em out. And if there's anyone in the Phoenix area who needs some dead weight in the cockpit, just let me know . . .

[Grant B]

Yeah, I wouldn't/didn't advise breaking any laws.

When I was 17 I saw a doctor for depression (I'm 40 now and still have the physical scars to prove it from back then, so it was pretty real). After a good old chat, the doctor was kind enough to suggest we kept it off the record or books so that I could get a mortgage etc. (This was in Britain) Had I continued and seen a couple more doctors I would be asking for trouble by eventually having it on a record of such (especially if chasing a career in aviation). I've always been honest about everything often to a fault and it's even cost relationships.

However, when it comes to business, jobs, careers and professions - there's a sensible and understandable limit to how honest we should be or are. Again just my experience/advice.

On my commerical checkride which i passed - the examiner mentioned we were pretty close to the trees. I said yeah I realize that and everythings cool (which was the truth).

Truth or not - I wouldn't have said - Oh crap yeah I didn't notice.

 

Anyway, I'm no longer in aviation.

I wish you luck and think you should go for it. All the best.

[apiaguy]

My original point still is that if you needed meds for your condition, maybe you shouldn't qualify for a medical yet and if you do qualify you should be put thru the loops. Maybe you should have quit your mission if you believe everything your mission pres is telling you.... I'm sure he didn't mandate you have to take meds or go home... if he did you should have gone home... you can return and serve when you're better.

[Basher]

Apaiguy,

 

Duly noted. No, the mission President did not mandate anything, per se. However, finding myself in a situation that was completely new and foreign to me, I thought it best to try things out as they came at me, I suppose, not knowing any better options. Nor did I know I would have these issues until I mentioned to the doc that I wanted to fly. But no harm, no foul, I think. I'm sure there are a grand number of pilots who partook of far more dangerous drugs than the very few I was perscribed, and they're doing just fine at holding their licenses, so I see no reason why monitored use of a perscription would be any different. I suppose the only difference is that they were never caught, so there's no trail. Go figure, eh? And funny that I qualify for a number of other professions that involve the daily use of firearms, heavy equipment, and such, isn't it? Methinks the FAA is just a tad antiquated, as there are, so I've been told by those who know, many pilots who fly on a daily basis in a depressed state because they can't afford to lose their license. And I do believe that untreated depression is far worse than treated depression, wouldn't you agree? But I can see we're in an "agree to disagree" situation, so I'll bow out. I'm not looking to make enemies here. As it is, I've got those firey hoops before me already, so it seems you're way of thinking has won out. Oh well. Better go don my nomex suit, 'cause I'm tackling those hoops one way or another! I've not quit on anything like this before (mission included), so why start now at the prodding of a few naysayers?

 

Anyhow, thanks again for the comments. I think I'll take a good, long look at my financial situation and weigh things out. At worst, I'll get my PPL and decide a career in heli's isn't for me, and I'll be stuck with a hobby I can only enjoy once a month or so, eh? And even then, if I build an hour or two a month when possible, after a few years I may just have enough hours to get that dream job after all.

[apiaguy]

Hey... now your thinking. I don't want you to think your ruffling feathers... just speaking my peace. My original post said to "try hard and never give up"... so if you keep trying you can do it... this faa stuff will be your first good lesson on government intervention...

I do disagree that untreated depression is worse than medicated... there can be other ways to treat it besides medication... that is my point..

anyhow.. good luck

CTR

[rodrop]

HEY... at least I use the same nick name ...you guys are confusing me thanks for the name hint.

hang in there.... sounds like your heart is in it...

[bossman]

Hey... now your thinking. I don't want you to think your ruffling feathers... just speaking my peace. My original post said to "try hard and never give up"... so if you keep trying you can do it... this faa stuff will be your first good lesson on government intervention...

I do disagree that untreated depression is worse than medicated... there can be other ways to treat it besides medication... that is my point..

anyhow.. good luck

CTR

apiaguy,

Have you ever been interveened by the government?

[apiaguy]

why yes I have.

[Basher]

Hey... now your thinking. I don't want you to think your ruffling feathers... just speaking my peace. My original post said to "try hard and never give up"... so if you keep trying you can do it... this faa stuff will be your first good lesson on government intervention...

I do disagree that untreated depression is worse than medicated... there can be other ways to treat it besides medication... that is my point..

anyhow.. good luck

CTR

 

No, no, I see where you're coming from, so I don't think you're trying to ruffle my feathers. At least not with malicious intent.

 

And please note, I didn't say that untreated depression is worse than medicated, I said it was worse than "treated" depression. I, too, believe there are other ways. MY point in all my jabbering is that I wasn't aware of those other courses of treatment when I was put on meds. I sure wish I had been, because I would have opted for them at the start. As I mentioned, while I was on meds, they didn't help much. What DID help was the counseling that I later received. Why they didn't offer me the counselling first, and the meds AFTER (if the counselling didn't work) is beyond me. I had no idea what my options were, or else I'd have chosen differently. Just trying to do my duty, and got shorthanded a bit, but such is life. I don't hold any grudges. Thanks for the posts that have pushed me onward. No hard feelings here, hope there are none on your end!

 

Rodrop,

 

Sorry about that. I usually use this nickname (Basher) on most forums I participate in. Not sure why I used my name on MyTransponder, but oh well. And yeah, my heart's in it. I can't really see myself enjoying any other career as much as this one. There's just something about the thought that I could someday enjoy the cockpit of a nice Bell 206/407, MD500E, or a BK117/EC-145 helping the world through EMS or other such service-oriented flying careers. I'll push through and make it somehow, just gotta get the finanaces figured and start stocking up on the ramen/mac&cheese/hot dogs!

[Wally]

Basher- The thread got pretty long quickly, I haven't read everything, but a quick suggestion in case it hasn't been mentioned- get some expert advice. Similar issues are well known amongst professional pilots. Knew a pilot who got tagged with 'psych issues' by unqualified remarks in the wrong ears. Had a heck of a time, until an airline type steered him to a very knowledgeable AME with experience. Takes time and very careful effort to resolve these things, but they can be done.

[Basher]

Wally,

 

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll ask around and see what I can find out in my area. The FAA's currently denied my medical because I couldn't get them the information they wanted in their time frame (dang near impossible to get all these test done in less than 30 days!), but the letter of denial stated that once they received my information, they would reopen the case and review it again. I'm pretty darn sure they'll approve it once they look the test results over, but the problem is the wait time for that, and gathering the funds for the tests (which I've almost got taken care of). No worries, unless they do turn me down for some reason, after which I'll make an appeal using your suggestion. I'll start looking around just in case, but I'm not too concerned just yet. Thanks for the helpful hints, everyone!