What is a Mountain Course??

[RkyMtnHI]

Hey all,

 

i was wondering what you real mountain pilots/instructors consider an honest mountain course.

 

What type of ships do you teach in (and which ships will you NOT teach in or fly into the mountains), at what DAs, in what conditions, how many hours do you recommend for the course (or, how many hours are in a typical mountain course?), how many hours should the instructor have TT, how many should the instructor have IN the mountains at high DA, is there a 141 syllabus for said course, how much does it cost, can you do a turbine transition at the same time, should you do a turbine transition at the same time??

 

if you can think of other questions, please chip in,

 

aloha,

 

dp

[rick1128]

Hey all,

 

i was wondering what you real mountain pilots/instructors consider an honest mountain course.

 

What type of ships do you teach in (and which ships will you NOT teach in or fly into the mountains), at what DAs, in what conditions, how many hours do you recommend for the course (or, how many hours are in a typical mountain course?), how many hours should the instructor have TT, how many should the instructor have IN the mountains at high DA, is there a 141 syllabus for said course, how much does it cost, can you do a turbine transition at the same time, should you do a turbine transition at the same time??

 

if you can think of other questions, please chip in,

 

aloha,

 

dp

 

 

There was an article in Heliops magazine a month or so ago on Canadian Helicopters' school in BC. I have attended the course they do a Heliexpo each year. Their instructors are all very experienced mountain pilots. Some of the things they teach are from the experiences of some of their founding pilots. They do teach some things that are much different than what is in the FAA syllabuses. And for good reason. I wish that I had taken this course prior to my Commercial checkride. Currently they teach in EC120's and AS350's. However, I understand that they will instruct in other types of helicopters at customer request.

 

As for turbine transition, While it is possible, personally I wouldn't do it. I did a R44 transition while I was doing Vertical Reference training. In my opinion, I didn't get as much out of either as I could of if I did my transition prior to the VR training. Just too much information and things going.

 

I do not know of any Part 141 syllabus out there, however the Helicopter Association of Canada does have a mountain flying syllabus on their website.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Personally, I have never taken a mountain flying course. I moved here and just started flying in the mountains. The POH tells you what you need to know about DA performance, and I read an old army mountain flying manual that told me enough about winds, downdrafts and updrafts, and turbulence, and a couple books on mountain weather. The rest I learned through experience.

 

I find that taking things slow is the best approach. If you need to do something quickly or run out of power, you didn't plan properly.

 

I think that any helicopter can be flown in the mountains as long as it has the performance needed for its weight and conditions. It isn't about turbine or piston. I would rather fly a lightly loaded R44 in the mountains, then a grossed out B206.

 

I find most pilots over exaggerate the skill required to fly in the mountains. In reality, you only need to be highly skilled if you did not properly plan for the conditions and give yourself enough margin.

 

If you look at accident statistics, you will see that accidents caused from DA problems occur all over the country. Even at low altitudes on warm days. So, it isn't the mountains or the elevation that crates an issue, it is a lack of awareness. And mountains don't jump out in front of you when you are flying, so it isn't the mountains that are an issue. The vast majority of accidents in the mountains can be attributed to weather. Understanding the weather patterns will keep you out of trouble more than anything else.

[clay]

First off, I think schools that offer a "turbine transition" are just trying to take peoples money. There are plenty of other ways to get turbine experience aside from paying for it. as far as mountain courses? who knows... I've never done an official one. I have flown with the high time guys, watched what they did, asked questions, and went from there. I was on a flight a few weeks ago getting fuel in Boulder and was approached by a fellow at the airport asking me about helicopter flights, apparently there has been a few helicopters coming up from sea level to do mountain courses. sounds like a good way to make some extra $$$ for the school. but unfortunately, a waiste for the student.

Edited April 4, 2009 by clay

[DynamicallyUnstable]

I did a mountain course at HAI a long while back and it was great. Learning to deal with high DA and NOT having the power to even susatain a hover was fantastic experience. I learned about REAL power management, what the blessing of ETL really means, and lots more. It was about 10 hours or so and done in a 300cb. I would recommend it in a piston because then you really will have a power problem. There is little/no room for error and I felt that it made me a better pilot. Someone that has no idea how a helicopter can suffer in high DA could easily smash one into the ground making a careless approach. Seems to me that unless you were doing it in high DA and loaded to the gills in a turbine, it's just not going to benefit you as much and who is gonna train like that?

Anyways, to answer your questions,

1) Teach it in a piston (300 preferably IMO)

2) It was hot in Reno NV when we did it and took them up to Truckee CA as well.

3) I think 10 hours was pretty good. Gave enough time to really experience it, learn to manage it and become decent at it.

4) The instructor should have a few "mountain courses" under his/her belt before teaching it. Of course this is going to be different based on the instructor. Some people will be pretty good at dealing with high DA after 10 hours, some 30. Hard to put a minimum number on a CFI instead of case by case basis. Fly with the CFI, check them out, quiz them, etc.

5) See answer 4 (depends on the CFI)

6) We didn't do it as 141.

7) The cost was maybe 20-30 more an hour inclusive. We paid that rate and the hotel and our car rental were included. That seemed really fair to me. In other words, the course cost around 200-300 more than basic flight time and included hotel. There were 4 AC, 5-6 instructors, and 8 students.

8) I would recommend against a turbine transition at the same time for a couple reasons. See answer 1 AND IMO it would shortchange the student giving them 2 new things to deal with at once. They are not going to be able to give 100% to either the TT or the MC if they are doing both at the same time. They also wouldn't know the difference between high DA and low DA as well if it was a completely unfamiliar AC. If they did it in the 300 after flying one for 70 hours, they would REALLY know the difference in power at high DA

 

Hopefully that makes sense, it's been a long day and it's time for bed. Hahaha

[Tawler]

I did a mountain course at HAI a long while back and it was great. Learning to deal with high DA and NOT having the power to even susatain a hover was fantastic experience. I learned about REAL power management, what the blessing of ETL really means, and lots more. It was about 10 hours or so and done in a 300cb. I would recommend it in a piston because then you really will have a power problem. There is little/no room for error and I felt that it made me a better pilot. Someone that has no idea how a helicopter can suffer in high DA could easily smash one into the ground making a careless approach. Seems to me that unless you were doing it in high DA and loaded to the gills in a turbine, it's just not going to benefit you as much and who is gonna train like that?

Anyways, to answer your questions,

1) Teach it in a piston (300 preferably IMO)

2) It was hot in Reno NV when we did it and took them up to Truckee CA as well.

3) I think 10 hours was pretty good. Gave enough time to really experience it, learn to manage it and become decent at it.

4) The instructor should have a few "mountain courses" under his/her belt before teaching it. Of course this is going to be different based on the instructor. Some people will be pretty good at dealing with high DA after 10 hours, some 30. Hard to put a minimum number on a CFI instead of case by case basis. Fly with the CFI, check them out, quiz them, etc.

5) See answer 4 (depends on the CFI)

6) We didn't do it as 141.

7) The cost was maybe 20-30 more an hour inclusive. We paid that rate and the hotel and our car rental were included. That seemed really fair to me. In other words, the course cost around 200-300 more than basic flight time and included hotel. There were 4 AC, 5-6 instructors, and 8 students.

8) I would recommend against a turbine transition at the same time for a couple reasons. See answer 1 AND IMO it would shortchange the student giving them 2 new things to deal with at once. They are not going to be able to give 100% to either the TT or the MC if they are doing both at the same time. They also wouldn't know the difference between high DA and low DA as well if it was a completely unfamiliar AC. If they did it in the 300 after flying one for 70 hours, they would REALLY know the difference in power at high DA

 

Hopefully that makes sense, it's been a long day and it's time for bed. Hahaha

 

 

Nice testimonial , I'll be attending the Mountain Course with Bristow 2nd week in May. I've heard nothing but great things.

[RockyMountainPilot]

There is little/no room for error and I felt that it made me a better pilot.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but this demonstrates poor planning. A better pilot would make sure that s/he left a wide enough margin so that if something did go wrong, then s/he would be able to elect another course of action.

 

I see this all the time - Maxed out helicopter hovering at about a foot off the ground. It starts moving forward scrapping the ground with its skids, then it pops off the ground into ETL. They then skim the tops of the trees trying to climb to save their lives all int he name of training. The first time they encounter a large downdraft off the end of the runway will be the last time as well.

 

Flying to your machines limits does not make you a better pilot. Being a better pilot means never getting yourself into that situation.

 

It is very easy to train for high DA at sea level. Just limit the manifold pressure you are using for takeoff. First time my instructor showed me that, I decided I would never want to do that for real, and I never have.

[RockyMountainPilot]

First off, I think schools that offer a "turbine transition" are just trying to take peoples money. There are plenty of other ways to get turbine experience aside from paying for it. as far as mountain courses? who knows... I've never done an official one. I have flown with the high time guys, watched what they did, asked questions, and went from there. I was on a flight a few weeks ago getting fuel in Boulder and was approached by a fellow at the airport asking me about helicopter flights, apparently there has been a few helicopters coming up from sea level to do mountain courses. sounds like a good way to make some extra $$$ for the school. but unfortunately, a waiste for the student.

 

I agree 100%

[DynamicallyUnstable]

I don't mean to be rude, but this demonstrates poor planning. A better pilot would make sure that s/he left a wide enough margin so that if something did go wrong, then s/he would be able to elect another course of action.

 

I see this all the time - Maxed out helicopter hovering at about a foot off the ground. It starts moving forward scrapping the ground with its skids, then it pops off the ground into ETL. They then skim the tops of the trees trying to climb to save their lives all int he name of training. The first time they encounter a large downdraft off the end of the runway will be the last time as well.

 

Flying to your machines limits does not make you a better pilot. Being a better pilot means never getting yourself into that situation.

 

It is very easy to train for high DA at sea level. Just limit the manifold pressure you are using for takeoff. First time my instructor showed me that, I decided I would never want to do that for real, and I never have.

 

Never getting yourself into that situation?? Man, I hate to tell you but in the real world, it'll happen. You'll end up at max gross someday, at the edge of a helicopters limit (on the ok side) and HAVE to do that if you're going to get into the air. Sure, in a perfect world, all of our helicopters have 8 million horsepower, and only have to carry one passenger from 2000' DA to 3000' DA but this isn't a perfect world and being good at handling the machine well at it's limits WILL make you a better pilot. You're not going to be a good pilot in your bosses eyes when he says fly this mission and you say, "NO, it's right at the helicopters limitation." and he says, "it's inside the helicopters envelope," and you say "nope, sorry."

 

Sorry man but I'll take the training to be comfortable handling that mission over turning the mission away.

 

And yes I agree, it is easy to train for lack of power issues at sea level by limiting manifold pressure but it's not the same. Learning that you DON'T get ETL as quickly AND dealing with the fact that the air IS less dense making your rotor blades (MAIN AND TAIL) less efficient AND other things, is not something you'll be able to duplicate as well as the real thing. It IS a good experience IMO and although you are entitled to your opinion, I hope you do live in the perfect world...not to be rude.

 

Tawler, enjoy the mountain course. It is a blast!

[AngelFire_91]

I don't mean to be rude, but this demonstrates poor planning. A better pilot would make sure that s/he left a wide enough margin so that if something did go wrong, then s/he would be able to elect another course of action.

 

I see this all the time - Maxed out helicopter hovering at about a foot off the ground. It starts moving forward scrapping the ground with its skids, then it pops off the ground into ETL. They then skim the tops of the trees trying to climb to save their lives all int he name of training. The first time they encounter a large downdraft off the end of the runway will be the last time as well.

 

Flying to your machines limits does not make you a better pilot. Being a better pilot means never getting yourself into that situation.

 

It is very easy to train for high DA at sea level. Just limit the manifold pressure you are using for takeoff. First time my instructor showed me that, I decided I would never want to do that for real, and I never have.

I'm going to have to agree with Dynamic on this one. I would agree that planning and not getting yourself into that situation is the best course of action. However, unforunently it happens in the real world that you will be faced with situations like Hot, high, and gross. And I would much rather have the training and know how to deal with it if it comes up and plan for not to, then to plan for it not to happen, and then it does and I have no training in those situations. Best example, I worked on top of Pikes Peak (14,110ft) as a Medic. We would have to land HEMS up there on occasion. You think those guys never got training? and just hoped they didn't have to go? Nope, we used to set up landing zones about once a month for their training purposes.

 

One of the most supprising things I ever experienced was the first time I flew a 300 in Colorado. Pulling collective, rolling on throttle, hit the override stop on the throttle, and the rotor started to decay, I was only like 20 ft off the ground. That was one of those "Oh WOW! " Moments. Now I teach all my students some situations to look out for if they are flight in High DA, even if we are at only 800msl.

[kodoz]

I took the Canadian Helicopters Mountain Ground Course at HAI, and have all their information and the course handout. The 206 seems to be their primary training platform now, and a basic or abbreviated mountain course is 15 hrs of flight and 4 days of ground (that goes for $17-26,000 USD). A standard course is 22 hrs/4 days ground, and goes for $37000. I forget what altitudes they said they operate at, but they're Inland Northwest and based out of Penticton BC. They also offer training in the EC120 and ASTAR.

 

The HAI ground course was worthwhile, even for a low-time pilot (although it's expensive). It's about 8 hours, and covered general performance & procedures, mountain weather and terrain, then specific procedures for different structures.

--c

[RockyMountainPilot]

Never getting yourself into that situation?? Man, I hate to tell you but in the real world, it'll happen. You'll end up at max gross someday, at the edge of a helicopters limit (on the ok side) and HAVE to do that if you're going to get into the air. Sure, in a perfect world, all of our helicopters have 8 million horsepower, and only have to carry one passenger from 2000' DA to 3000' DA but this isn't a perfect world and being good at handling the machine well at it's limits WILL make you a better pilot. You're not going to be a good pilot in your bosses eyes when he says fly this mission and you say, "NO, it's right at the helicopters limitation." and he says, "it's inside the helicopters envelope," and you say "nope, sorry."

 

Sorry man but I'll take the training to be comfortable handling that mission over turning the mission away.

 

And yes I agree, it is easy to train for lack of power issues at sea level by limiting manifold pressure but it's not the same. Learning that you DON'T get ETL as quickly AND dealing with the fact that the air IS less dense making your rotor blades (MAIN AND TAIL) less efficient AND other things, is not something you'll be able to duplicate as well as the real thing. It IS a good experience IMO and although you are entitled to your opinion, I hope you do live in the perfect world...not to be rude.

 

Tawler, enjoy the mountain course. It is a blast!

 

After 4,500 hours performing everything from Instruction to EMS, I never once got myself in a situation that I had no room for error. The lowest airport I operated form is at 5,000 feet. I have canceled flights many times and I have only ever had one employer balk at my decisions. I quickly left that employer and found another one.

 

This type of mentality of flying on the edge is so common in aviation that it is downright scary. Do you really value your job more than your life?

Edited April 5, 2009 by RockyMountainPilot

[Justin DBC]

I can see both sides of this.

 

In some circumstances (particularly military scenereos) you will need to push the aircraft to the limit. Also, there is always the posibility that you will make a mistake when you are planning. If you say that's impossible, then you probably need a reality check. Even the most experienced pilots can make mistakes and thus get themselves into a bad situation really fast. In this scenereo, it is good to have practiced in a controled environment with someone who knows what they're doing. In my opinion, you can't train enough on EPs.

 

However, I do agree that far too many pilots try to push the limits when it is not neccesary. There are very few reasons to ride the limitations and the fact that you want to want to bring an extra friend with you on your trip to Big Bear when it's 90 degrees out isn't one of them.

 

J-

[clay]

In some circumstances (particularly military scenereos) you will need to push the aircraft to the limit.

 

 

Is that because only the military fly's at MGW?

 

I highly doubt it.

 

here's a recent "for instance":

 

I have a friend who fly's Chinook's here in Denver who said they finally made it work the other day. They had to sling load a blackhawk that F'd up at the top of Monarch pass (11312 ft MSL)

 

so how often do you REALLY work your military helicopter to its limits?

[tiercel]

The latest Vertical Magazine has a nice article on Canadian Helicopter's mountain course. They're using EC120's and 206's, so it's got to be expensive, but seems like they cover things that only people with experience could teach. If you know anyone giving grants for advanced helicopter training, please let me know.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Trying for EP's is different then training for FU's. If you find yourself skimming the tree tops trying to stay in ETL without a lick more of collective to pull, that is a FU.

 

Sure, I have times when my planning didn't work out as intended. Happens all the time. You take a minute and redo your planning, or change the mission to fit the plan you originally performed. Maybe you need to unload fuel, burn fuel off, leave a passenger behind, change your route, wait for a cooler time of day, etc etc. Numerous times I have had to pick up rather large patients that would put us overgross. If I see from my planning that we will be 50 pounds overweight, I drop off my crew, and tell them I will be back in 12 minutes when I am 50 pounds lighter. No one ever complained. And also, you can still be over weight and undergross. Before you leave for the day, you need to determine what are the highest DA conditions you will encounter. You need to adjust your maximum weight accordingly. I have often been 400 pounds undergross and I wouldn't consider picking up a patient until I burned fuel off equal to their weight.

 

Training to fly to the limits because you planned poorly is training for a FU. You are essentially training poor judgment skills. If would be like flying into the clouds with a non-instrument rated pilot, in a non-instrument rated ship because it "might" happen. Why not assume they will really FU and make sure they pick up some ice in those clouds. LOL

 

There is a very common and scary attitude among pilots. Especially low time pilots. They will do anything that any other pilot will do, and try and up the ante. I really don't care if another pilot would take a flight I cancel. Maybe they are more experienced in a particular area, or more comfortable in the aircraft, or maybe they just don't value their life as much as I value mine.

 

Instead of showing pilots how to fly the aircraft at its limits, it is much wiser to teach them how to say no to the flight in the first place.

[DynamicallyUnstable]

Ok, I'm sure the OP didn't intend for this to become a pissing match but I am just going to say a few more things about this (RMP in particular) and bow out gracefully.

 

You make keep references to flying over MGW. I am not talking about pushing the limits of the AC as a "test pilot" here beyond limitations, I am merely talking about working at or very near the limitation given to the AC BY the manufacturer. I would never advise anyone to fly outside of the AC limitations. I am talking about being comfortable flying at MGW within the limitations of the aircraft. I don't see why you have such a problem with this. I also NEVER said anything about skimming the treetops without an ounce more collective to pull. Please don't put words into my mouth based on your interpretation of what has been said. When I did High DA training at HAI, it was over desert, for the most part in the crucial phases of flight and where it wasn't desert it was dry riverbeds and an airport. I know I said there was little or no room for error and that was meant as far as personal error meaning that if you were not setting up properly, the instructor WOULD have to intervene to avoid putting the AC into an unsafe approach or to even get it off the ground!

 

As far as low timers trying to "up the ante," and do things that shouldn't be done...well that goes hand in hand with the "old, bold pilots" saying. What we are talking about is training. Training to take an aircraft into safe conditions, within the bounds of the AC performance, and learn to fly it without the huge error margin we are used to having in typical training scenarios. I really don't see the problem with it and I am glad I know how to do it SAFELY. I would sure hate it if I was presented with a mission that was WITHIN the limitations but at the edge and feelt uncomfortable accepting it or having to deny it. We all know that adding the stress of not feeling confident doing it in the first place is going to make it more dangerous by itself! (IMSAFE = think mental)

 

Yes, of course proper planning is essential and without it, you're flying blind and yes, that is pure ignorance and will someday bite you...HARD. But WITH proper planning (weight and performance) you CAN safely fly at the limitation (not beyond) of the helicopter if need be. That's why we HAVE these limitations.

 

I agree that OVERLOADING the AC based on weight, DA AND given conditions is stupid and I doubt anyone is going to argue that. This is not what I am talking about here.

 

To each his/her own man, no hard feelings.

[RockyMountainPilot]

I never insinuated you said anything about trimming the treetops. I was giving an example.

 

My posts are in response to the phrase "No room for error." I never said that an aircraft shouldn't be flown to its designed limits. I am talking about exceeding limits that should be self imposed based upon aircraft performance and the need to maintain a margin of safety. Flying on the edge doesn't leave a margin of safety. That is why it is called "the edge".

[Whistlerpilot]

I think there are 2 different issues being debated here. Mountain flying, and high DA operations.

 

They are not necessarily the same. Any mountain flying course will emphasize operating within the limitations of the particular helicopter used. Generally landings in the mountains are done using the HOGE charts which will limit either DA or MGW. Mountain training is not about getting the machine flying when it can't even hover IGE. Limiting power at lower altitudes is an interesting training scenario so students can first hand experience what they should operationally avoid later! This is not a safe mountain flying technique though.

 

I guess high DA operations can be kinda simulated at sea level, but mountain flying can't really be simulated with out mountains! Piston trainers need lower altitude rugged convoluted mountainous type terrain to simulate mountain flying.

 

I have several thousand hours sitting left seat as a heliski guide flying in the mountains of BC. That's what got me stoked to become a pilot myself. I was lucky and trained in BC where the majority of my flying has been in the mountains, and also got to do the 20 hour mountain training course in a B206 with Chinook Helicopters. My 2 instructors there had been flying for 30 years and 50 years. "KO" is quite a legend and was one of the 2nd generation of Canadian mountain pilots. Learning from a CFI with out actual operational experience is probably not ideal. Here in Canada it's not usual to take a mountain course until working as an operational pilot with more than 1000 hours. That's when a job would require the course. I was really fortunate to get the course as a low timer and think it has helped me, but some say it's better to take when you are more seasoned.

 

The Canadian Helicopters mountain flying course has a long history right back right to the origins of mountain flying in the Bell 47 with Carl Agar. He started Okanagan Helicopters (much later became Canadian) in 1947.

 

In my experience mountain flying is not about pushing limits, but about knowing your own limits. As a heliski guide I've flown with many different pilots over the years and they are not all created equal. All have been good pilots, but not all are comfortable in the mountains. It can be really challenging flying and often comes down to weather minimums and tough go no/go PDM decisions. The flying skills should be a given. It's the judgment calls that are harder.

 

Doing a turbine transition at the same time as a mountain course is not recommended. Do the turbine transition first then the mountain course after if you can swing it. A mountain course in a turbine helicopter will allow access to bigger terrain. The techniques can be learned at lower DA in a piston trainer, but it's difficult to get into the same alpine features at those altitudes. The logging roads and cut blocks of the pacific NW are ideal for this kind of training.

 

I have collected several different mountain flying manuals. If any one really wants a copy I could scan some info. PM me if interested. Unfortunately no one has published a complete helicopter specific mountain flying book yet.

 

The closest is The Helicopter Pilots Handbook by Phil Croucher which has quite a bit of mountain and operational flying info.

 

http://www.electrocution.com/aviation/#HPH

 

Spectacular day heliskiing in the mountains just North of Whistler today. The pilot did 70 landings up to 9000' in AS350 B2. The skiing has been excellent, but the tourist season is slowing in Whistler and my guiding season is almost over. I have my CFI check ride scheduled for April 28 in McMinnville OR. Doing an intensive course with Jerry Trimble. Does anyone have experience with him? Wish me luck!

 

I've taken a job flying glider tours (pembertonsoaring.com) in the mountains near Whistler this summer because of the helicopter industry slow down. However I will be leasing a machine for flight instruction and time building in a month. If anyone wants a mountain flying course or just mountain time building in WA or BC at very affordable rates get in touch with me.

 

Mountain flying is all about reading the wind!!!

[JDHelicopterPilot]

RMP how it going?

 

Just to back up when RMP said and a great reminder, "you can be over weight but under max gross weight". So check your performance. I keep my performace charts for the A119 on my kneeboard. Summer is just around the corner so it's going to be a bigger issue soon.

 

I have heard nothing but good things about the mountain course from Bristow out of Concord, Ca.

 

I hope any course includes not just flying into airports at high DA and in mountains. As we don't have a nice big runway to land on a lot of times. They should teach pilots the proper approach profile for off airport operations. Power management, performance chart review and as RMP said, other options that can be taken so as to still be able to do the flight should be covered.

 

Advanced weight and balance and performance profiles should be covered. In other words the CFI should give the student a mock flight from point A to B to C with changes to passenger or cargo weights at each location. They should then look up and see if they will have the performance to do the flight. If not, what can they do?

 

In addition the course should include mountain weather!

 

I wouldn't do it in a turbine unless said pilot already has time in that aircraft. Then consider the additional cost of doing in a turbine. You don't want to be learning and getting familiar with a new aircraft all while learning about high DA and mountain flying. That would be a lot to soak in and may actually hinder the learning process.

 

Have fun! Take a lot of pictures it is really nice up there!

 

JD

[SquirrelFlight]

Spectacular day heliskiing in the mountains just North of Whistler today. The pilot did 70 landings up to 9000' in AS350 B2. The skiing has been excellent, but the tourist season is slowing in Whistler and my guiding season is almost over. I have my CFI check ride scheduled for April 28 in McMinnville OR. Doing an intensive course with Jerry Trimble. Does anyone have experience with him? Wish me luck!

 

The name Jerry Trimble is ringing a bell with me *A LOT* but I can't put a person/face to the name. I did some FW flying up in OR before moving to AZ, and MMV was one of my regular destinations. Is Jerry the guy who has the glider school there?

[Justin DBC]

Is that because only the military fly's at MGW?

 

I highly doubt it.

 

here's a recent "for instance":

 

I have a friend who fly's Chinook's here in Denver who said they finally made it work the other day. They had to sling load a blackhawk that F'd up at the top of Monarch pass (11312 ft MSL)

 

so how often do you REALLY work your military helicopter to its limits?

 

Not often. It happens frequently when we're doing firefighting though. However, that's with an easily jetisonable load that's not going to cost an arm and a leg to replace. It happens a lot in Afghanistan with the H-60s as well (especially during the summer).

 

Whenever possible we try to leave a real healthy power margin. There is just no sense in getting yourself right on the line unless it's necessary.

[kodoz]

The name Jerry Trimble is ringing a bell with me *A LOT* but I can't put a person/face to the name. I did some FW flying up in OR before moving to AZ, and MMV was one of my regular destinations. Is Jerry the guy who has the glider school there?

 

I did an autorotations course with Jerry...he's a former RHC instructor pilot from the early days. Currently flying 9015V, which I think is serial number 17. Good guy...learned a lot in the day that I was there.

[kodoz]

Unfortunately no one has published a complete helicopter specific mountain flying book yet.

This book isn't bad...I'd recommend a quick look at it during flight training.

[Darren Hughes]

The closest is The Helicopter Pilots Handbook by Phil Croucher which has quite a bit of mountain and operational flying info.

 

http://www.electrocution.com/aviation/#HPH

 

I took Phil's JAA ATPL(H) conversion course in which he includes some excerpts from that book. He also threw the actual book into the box when he was sending me the course materials, which was nice of him. His stuff is really well written, he makes everything really easy to understand. I'm taking 2 more of those damn exams in the UK next month having passed the first 10 in October. After that, only 2 more to go! I haven't gotten around to reading it yet cause I'm instructing full time as well as prepping for those exams also. But when the JAA crap is out of the way, it's the first on my list.

 

Spectacular day heliskiing in the mountains just North of Whistler today. The pilot did 70 landings up to 9000' in AS350 B2. The skiing has been excellent, but the tourist season is slowing in Whistler and my guiding season is almost over. I have my CFI check ride scheduled for April 28 in McMinnville OR. Doing an intensive course with Jerry Trimble. Does anyone have experience with him? Wish me luck!

 

I've taken a job flying glider tours (pembertonsoaring.com) in the mountains near Whistler this summer because of the helicopter industry slow down.

Did I mention I'm incredibly jealous of you Whistler Pilot!!

 

 

This book isn't bad...I'd recommend a quick look at it during flight training.

Good recommendation Kodoz, I came across that book a while back and had forgotten about it until your post. I literally just placed the order on Amazon just now. It is now No.2 on my must read list.

 

I must say, all this Mountain talk has got me all charged up again about mountain flying. It's bringing be back to the mid-summer flights to Mammoth, Reno, Truckee and Tahoe in the Raven I. Damn, I miss Cali. There just isn't anything like that over here on the east coast. Off airport landings are a piece of cake here compared to up there. Any ideas on how to convince the wife we need to move back west?? <_ colorado or cali hmmm decisions>