sikorskypilot Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 So can the FAA violate you on part 91 rules when you are in a Part 133 operation.For Example:FAR PART 91.119 (a) which states in relevant part, that except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes: (a) Anywhere. An altitude, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. Does this apply during external load operations (part 133)?What if the helicopter is Dual engine equipped? 2nd ruleFAR PART 91.13 (we all should know this one) (a) which states that no person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endager the life or property of another. yet again does this apply during a part 133 operation when the property you are working on is the property in question? What do you think? Is part 91 valid?or does part 133 overide 91? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoFlyer Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 No, 133 does not override part 91. You have operate in a manner that allows you to make an emergency landing without undue hazard. Don't ask me what a due hazard is, because I don't know. The rule applies equally to a twin engine aircraft. If you can hover OGE on one engine, great. If you can't hover OGE OEI than you can't be in a position that your emergency landing would cause an undue hazard. As for careless and reckless, let me use this scenario. You are slinging A/C units off the top of a building and experience an engine failure that causes you to crash. Whether the operation was careless or reckless will depend on many factors, but I will simplify it to these statements. #1: You performed an extensive ground and air recon for emergency landing sites along your route, and cleared unnecessary persons from along that route. In my opinion, this is not a careless or reckless operation. #2: You arrive at the site, shut down for a cup of coffee and BS for a while with the foreman. After about an hour you hook up your line, and start slinging the units. In #1 you performed actions to mitigate the risk associated with the operation, and thus it wasn't careless or reckless. In #2 you just showed up and started working, with no preparation. This is obviously careless, and in my opinion reckless as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Part 91 always applies. You have to route the external load along paths that won't endanger persons on the ground. You cannot fly it over populated areas, unless you get a waiver from the FSDO. This can be done if you're doing something like slinging equipment to the top of a building, or taking it off, but you really, really need to get with the FSDO and coordinate what you're going to do, well in advance of doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikorskypilot Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 well then if that is the case, anytime you are doing sling work you may be violating 91.119 (a). Unless you are working on a building that is at a alt. that will be within the hv chart. There is always a hazard in lift work, its how you prepare yourself prior to the operation that makes each lift safe. How many times have you ever heard of a helicopter doing lift work with some kind of major system failure (engine, t/r) land the helicopter in a manner that it is without undue hazard, lol. Got to love the FAA. Please wright more. Love to hear what others think as well. Thank you photoflyer & gomer pylot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 There is always a hazard, but you have to manage it. It's part of the FAA's job to protect the public, and doing sling work in a heavily populated area does create a hazard for innocent bystanders. It's not the FAA's job to help you make money, it's to protect the public. If you can't do the job without endangering the public, you shouldn't be doing the job. Again, there are risks to everything, but you have to insure they are reasonable. And if things go wrong, it's your fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave7373 Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 No, 133 does not override part 91. You have operate in a manner that allows you to make an emergency landing without undue hazard. Don't ask me what a due hazard is, because I don't know. 91.119D does not say UNDUE hazard. 91.119 A says undue hazard. For a helicopter to operate below 500ft it must do so without hazard to persons or property... no undue.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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