Which branch to pick?

[WOFT_Applicant]

I have been going through the posts here and it seems very Army focused with very few posts or responses from other branches.

 

I am prior enlisted 29 with a degree. I do want to go back into the military as a pilot and am looking at the various programs. I was a S3 NCO for a joint ground / wing unit and know both sides very well. I want to fly rotary because of the mission and they get a lot of time in the air if they want it.

 

I think I am pretty competitive:

ASVAB: 99

GT: 124

AFAST: 115 but that was a few years ago before I was deployed

BA in Economics from a good school

I can get recommendations from majors that are now lt col's in the marines (pilots)

Got to drop a few pounds and run more but I'm assuming most of the other guys have to also

 

I just wanted an idea of why some people chose their specific branch to fly in. I am leaning toward the Army program because its honestly the quickest route to an operational unit. The Marines is OCS / TBS / Pre flight / flight / specialty which is close to 2.5 or 3 years until youre operational.

 

Navy is similar I think.

I dont know much about the Air Force program.

 

Another factor is quality of life. Navy bases are always close to the water and great beaches. Army bases are in the middle of biker bars and trailer parks (Fort McClellan AL for example). Marine bases are a mixed bag.

 

Just fishing for opinions and thanks in advance to all.

[Darkhorse]

If your looking for quality of helo training, no one teaches helo's like the Army. After training how things are done is another story. The AF used to send their pilots through the Army training (Initial rotor wing training) but started training their own a few years ago.

If your looking for quality of life, AF all the way. You will be a bastard child in the fixed wing guys eyes but at least you will be having fun and living/being treated MUCH better than the Army guys.

Pay will most likely be better in the AF also because you will be commissioned. You can be commissioned in the Army also but if your plan is getting the most flying you would want to be a Warrant. There are also alot more vacancies filled each year in the Army and you know you will be flying helo's. AF I'm not positive anymore but I don't think you get to pick between fw/rw. You may be able to request since most want fw.

Thats my thoughts, Ive been in the Army and the AF and if I had a choice it would be AF even if it were for fw. Life is MUCH better for you and your family if you have one, all depends on what you want though.

[ErOk_OnE]

If your looking for quality of helo training, no one teaches helo's like the Army. After training how things are done is another story. The AF used to send their pilots through the Army training (Initial rotor wing training) but started training their own a few years ago.

 

Air Force is still here at Mother Rucker.

We see em flying their huey's all safe and what not. LOL.

 

Seriously though...i was in the air force and came over to the better side of rotor wing flight.

 

huey's are awesome...they have a great history...but as darkhorse mentioned, no teaches helos like the army and the army has the best helos.

[FLHooker]

Do you like Blondes or Brunettes? Both are women, just have their small differences.

[Rob Lyman]

If your looking for quality of helo training, no one teaches helo's like the Army.

 

Well, that is true. The Army does it different. Not necessarily better. Just different. I went through Navy flight school to fly SH-60Bs (Seahawks). I later joined the Army National Guard and have gone through UH-60A AQC, UH-60A/L MTPC and UH-60M AQC. I feel I am qualified to comment on both services' flight training.

 

Navy:

Dual rated (fixed wing and rotary wing)

Officer (warrant officer flight program is only for a selected few enlisted active duty candidates)

Very competitive. Fellow students do not help each other. They are competing, from day one and throughout their career, with their peers.

Students only have an "on wing" instructor for the first few flights in a syllabus, then they tend to switch off between instructors.

Instructors and test pilots learn by on the job training and are designated at the command level.

They tend to be better instrument pilots. A lot of low flying over water at night.

 

 

Army:

Advanced courses are less competitive. Students help each other out. They have "stick buddies" throughout a given course.

Instructors tend to be the same one throughout the course. A different instructor is more the exception than the rule.

There are specific courses to train instructors, maintenance test pilots, IEs and MEs. They are designated after completing training outside their home command.

More NVG and low level (over land) flying

 

After commissioning via ROTC, I finished Navy flight school in 13 months and got my wings. TheSH-60B training was another 8 months. I got to my first real command the equivalent of RL-1. In the Army you get your wings at the end of your aircraft specific training. The Army aircraft specific training does not include training for every mission. You are expected to continue training while at your command, eventually progressing to RL-1.

 

There are many more subtle differences between the two services and how they train helicopter pilots. Neither is better than the other. They just have different philosophies and approaches toward accomplishing similar goals.

[WOFT_Applicant]

Hey guys:

 

I was thinking Army, Navy or Marines primarily because they have garunteed flight spots. I hear it is almost impossible to get a flight spot in the Air Force and I dont think I could look at myself in the mirror every morning and respect myself (no offense to any one intended, I am just stating a personal view - my brother was a Captain in the Air Force it might just be a little sibling rivalry).

 

I think I understand why their schools are different, if youre flying over water there are very limited points of physical reference and you have to fly off instruments. If you're flying over land you want to watch out for big rocks that you can crash into. They both have similar yet different missions and I can respect that. At the end I do want to go attack so that limits it to the Army and Marines but I do remember a few Navy pilots flying Cobras in Iraq. I don't know if they still are but it was an experimental program when I was there.

 

I guess the main issue really is quality of life. I think I am going to go the commissioned route eventually (for the pay and resume builder for when I get out). Army bases for the most part suck and I have been to plenty of Army schools. Marine bases aren't so much better. Are there apaches in Hawaii, Korea and Germany? If so then I think I'm going Army, I also think its easier to get promoted in the Army O grades primarily because there are so many more slots. In the Marines it is very hard to stay career and get past O-4 / O-5 primarily because there are no slots and the Marines are such a small branch.

 

Rob: I have noticed something about Navy / Marine aviators - they are more self absorbed in that they care a lot about self preservation. A lot different from ground officers (the real ones) that always worry about their men first (even though theyre trained not to). Maybe it's because of flight school but I think it's because they do not really lead until they hit senior O-4. Until that point you are a pilot more than a leader. Army pilots (the warrants at least) are operators and great to work with. I haven't dealt with to many Army aviation officer above the O-3 grade so dont really have an opinion of them. I have noticed something during deployments - Gaurd officers are weird - they are always trying to strike a deal - like they need a QRF run to xyz to pull out some of their guys from a firefight and they will do this for us when we get them back. The way I saw it was I will send a QRF because it is our job and hopefully if we need help in the future you guys will try and bail us out. I don't get the bartering all the time.

[Liner]

Yeah, I really wish I coulda shot stuff, but oh well

Seriously, I wish I was in your shoes. Whatever you choose, you've got some great times, great friends and great stories to tell in your future.

My Navy experience was several years ago '87-'91, but I loved every minute of it. I went helos back then because it was the fastest way to the fleet and I'd guess it still is.

You're right about the quality of life, too. Flight school in Pensacola can't be beat -- beach almost every day when a flight / simulator doesn't conflict. The shore bases are generally decent too (except maybe the Norfolk area). One other quality of life issue is an air conditioned aircraft carrier with "all the comforts". I absolutely loved the missions, whether anti-sub, SAR, small-deck landings, etc.

As far as attacking, you can do some pretty interesting things when you put a SEAL Team aboard. I'm just sayin'.

About your comments on opportunity to lead in the Navy. When I got out, that was one of the things I brought to the table in spades on my resume. Whether leading an aircrew as an Aircraft Commander, or leading the Line Division or AW division as a junior LT, I was amazed (and so was my employer) with the leadership skills I had versus most newly minted MBAs I ran up against. Maybe the Army provides even more depth, but you'll get nothing but leadership opportunity in the military -- as I'm sure you know.

I'm sure I'd be just as proud and reminiscent if I'd driven Apaches or some other Army bird, tho.

Best of luck to you!!

[redhawk]

Well I've been a VR member for a while but have yet to post. I hate for the first one to be bad news for someone. The above is some great advice but everyone looked over your age. If your 29 the Army is going to be your only choice. So in a sense you won't have to worry yourself over making the right choice. There are waivers available for age but they would be hard to come by these days but not impossible. I am a civilian pilot thats putting a WO packet in soon with the Army so I feel your pain. I considered the AF but once I found out about the age limit (Im almost 28) it shot me down too plus I am not finished with my degree so I knew it was out for me. But thats perfectly ok because most of my friends that fly in the Military are in the Army so I think I'd fit nice in the WO culture. Good Luck!!

 

 

Below are the age requirements for various services.

 

 

 

 

Navy and Marine Corps.

 

To become a Naval or Marine Corps Aviator, you must be between the ages of 19 and 26 at the time you enter flight training. Adjustments (waivers) can be made up to 24 months for those with prior service, and up to 48 months for those already in the military at the time of application.

 

Air Force

 

Must meet a selection board before age 28 1/2. Must enter Undergraduate Flying Training (UPT) before age 30.

 

Army (Rotary Wing)

 

Must not have reached the 33rd birthday as of the date of the convening board. Waivers for those who are 33 or 34 years of age at the time of the board may be considered, provided the applicant is otherwise exceptionally highly qualified. (Note: this means the applicant has a bachelor's degree, a high college GPA, flight training, or very high scores on the Army Flight Aptitude Exam

 

Coast Guard

 

The Coast Guard does not accept pilot applications, unless the person has already been a military pilot in a different service. To apply, one must be over 21 and under 32 years of age, must have at least 500 hours as a rated military pilot, and must have full-time flying experience within two years of the application.

[Rob Lyman]

... Whether leading an aircrew as an Aircraft Commander, or leading the Line Division or AW division as a junior LT, I was amazed (and so was my employer) with the leadership skills I had versus most newly minted MBAs I ran up against. ...

 

Liner,

 

Ha! You had AW division? I did that at HSL-40 in the early 90s. Then I went to Av/Arms.

 

True, getting a real Div O job bolsters the leadership resume. Unfortunately, not all junior officers get that opportunity. I think all Army Os have to have command experience to get promoted.

 

WOFT_Applicant,

 

Personally, I like the route I took. I started in the Navy, went through O-3 active, O-4 in the reserves, took an 8 year break to make money in the civilian world, then joined the FL ARNG. It has been kind of the best of all worlds. I got to fly SH-60Bs, SH-60Fs, HH-60Hs, UH-60As and UH-60Ms so far.The FL ARNG is getting HH-60Hs soon and I am sure I'll get a chance to fly a UH-60L before they are all gone too. All of that on the tax payer's dime.

 

In my experience, I have always been able to say to myself (while flying in the military), I can't believe I get paid to do this! If you can do the same, you will be happy flying in the military too

 

I WILL warn you of this. If you make it to senior O-3 in the Navy, at some point they will make you do a disassociated sea tour. You probably will not get to fly at all during that tour. If you are lucky, you MIGHT get to fly during that tour,but you have to be lucky and work hard at it. You'll come back for a department head job and get to fly again as an O-4, then do another disassociated job where you do NOT get to fly. This may be in Washington. Then, if you get command of a squadron, you can come back for one last flying tour. But you will be much more interested in running the squadron than in flying.

 

As a warrant officer in the Army, you will be flying most of your career, even if you have other collateral duties.

[WOFT_Applicant]

Thanks guys.

 

Well it looks like the Army I guess. I called a few Marine officers and 2 of them have sat on past boards. They said I still have a shot at being a pilot int he Marines but I would probably have to go back into the Reserves and finagle some paperwork. The way I am looking at it is:

 

1. Marine OCS + TBS (Almost a year) vs. Army WOCS (6 weeks)

2. The Army has more slots for pilots to fill than the Marines so easier to get in

3. Making field grade in the army is a lot easier than in the Marines

4. I can probably transfer into the Navy after a tour or two in the Army - if I have a family by then it would make life a lot easier for them and deployments are more frequent but shorter

5. Quality of life in the Army is a lot better than the Marines

6. Army has 'newer' platforms and money to upkeep

 

What do you guys do now that youre out? I worked at a few hedge funds after getting out but they kept screwing me around bonus time so I started my own little business and its starting to really pick up. I got a few calls from a few head hunters asking if I want to trade again but honestly every one I know that is still on a desk is being strangled with risk management so they really cant trade either they're just sitting behind a screen getting a paycheck and waiting for their respective bank to fire everyone - ha!

 

I'm only asking because I want to see what I can get into if I do the WOFT thing and ultimately retire hopefully as a O-4/O-5. I am young (sort of) but I do have a lot of financial experience and have done turn arounds at a few companies so maybe management in some sort of industry, maybe get a slot as an air line pilot if i can. All the officers I knew went into law enforcement. My first MOS was as an MP and I know I don't want to do that - to much paperwork and to many ways to get in trouble - one bad complaint and you lose your badge.

[WOFT_Applicant]

Rob and Liner:

 

If I transferred to the Navy from the Army as an O-3 or O-4 would it be the same stick? Disassociated tours with no flight time? I really wouldn't know how the Navy operates - well I guess there are plenty of collateral duties that an O-3/4 can fill and not really have to have a background in it.

 

If I stay a Warrant in the Army I will get a lot of stick time but I do want the resume builder for when I get out. I was told I can transfer into the commissioned officer corps without to much of a headache in the Army. Maybe stay in as a Warrant for 2 or 3 tours and then transfer into the commissioned officer corps? Would I transfer as a O-1 or O-3? I guess I should ask an Army guy.

 

I really do like leading and have had a pretty good taste of it from past deployments. I was the S3 FON and CON (future operations ncoic and current operations ncoic) for a forward deployed battallion so nothing really went down without my blessing. Flying gives you a rush but sending out a company to lay down some hate has it's own rush also. I would like the opportunity to lead a company / battallion / division and I think it will help me out when I ultimately do get out and go back to the civilian world.

 

Thanks in advance guys and I really am excited about this whole process. And yeah I am looking forward to a few good times, some stories and times to remember.

[FLHooker]

WOFT,

 

You do understand that WOCS is for WO's, not O's, right? If you go to WOCS, you will still have to go to OCS down the line to become a O grade. Happens, but about as often as a shuttle launch.

 

Another thing, the Army AV Commanding General just put out a policy that the age for the Army will be dropping down to 29. When this takes effect, I haven't a clue. I know that has already taken effect for the State of NY, no more WO Candidates or O grades over the age of 29. Our SAO has even said that he will not be doing any age waivers, period.

 

Rob,

 

60A, 60B, 60C, 60D, good god man, you have probably flown more 60's than the test pilots AT sikorsky. Hope all is well with you down in FL.

 

 

 

 

CHAD

[dolphindriver]

If you really want quality of life and some great flying, Coast Guard wins hands down. I have served in the Army and CG an have worked with pilots of every service. I can readily say that we have the best deal going.

 

Good luck in your choice.

[Rob Lyman]

Rob and Liner:

 

If I transferred to the Navy from the Army as an O-3 or O-4 would it be the same stick? Disassociated tours with no flight time? I really wouldn't know how the Navy operates - well I guess there are plenty of collateral duties that an O-3/4 can fill and not really have to have a background in it.

 

If I stay a Warrant in the Army I will get a lot of stick time but I do want the resume builder for when I get out. I was told I can transfer into the commissioned officer corps without to much of a headache in the Army. Maybe stay in as a Warrant for 2 or 3 tours and then transfer into the commissioned officer corps? Would I transfer as a O-1 or O-3? I guess I should ask an Army guy.

 

I really do like leading and have had a pretty good taste of it from past deployments. I was the S3 FON and CON (future operations ncoic and current operations ncoic) for a forward deployed battallion so nothing really went down without my blessing. Flying gives you a rush but sending out a company to lay down some hate has it's own rush also. I would like the opportunity to lead a company / battallion / division and I think it will help me out when I ultimately do get out and go back to the civilian world.

 

Thanks in advance guys and I really am excited about this whole process. And yeah I am looking forward to a few good times, some stories and times to remember.

 

I would not count on transferring from the Army to the Navy at the senior O-3 to O-4 level. For one, it would be the same stick, a lot of non-flying tours at that point. That is one of the reasons I reverted to CW2 when I went from the Navy to Army National Guard. I wanted to fly, not be on a staff. Also, you put yourself into an extremely competitve position where the guys you are competing with have already been selected above their peers for a doing a job they have been doing for 8 years (being Navy or Army officers, not the pilot part). You will have a REALLY tough time competing for promotion at that point, whether going from the Navy to the Army or vice versa. It can be done. I saw an Army warrant come into the Navy. I think he came in as an O-2. He was VERY strong in the flying part and had built a good reputation as a Naval Officer by the time he made O-3. But he was the exception.

 

FLHOOKER (Chad),

 

Good to hear from you. You need to change your name to NYHOOKER or something like that! LOL. I just finished my night check ride in the M Transition and hour ago. I turn around in two weeks and come back here to Rucker for the M MTP transition course. I am getting sooooo tired of Rucker! Bill G has transferred to Arizona to join Rob M to fly Apaches again. I just applied for the now vacant H-60 MTP position here so I may be a technician soon.

[FLHooker]

Rob,

 

Yeah, I was thinkin' about changing my name, but I'm not sure I can change my username. Certainly not going to create another one! That's awesome, M model. I can't wait to pick up the F model for the 47. Not going to be for years, but whatever. That would be pretty good if you took Bill's slot there, I know you were going in a bunch before I left. Yeah, Rucker isn't a ton of fun... I'll be down there in July probably, going thru the ALSE course, Yippee. Glad to see things are going well for you down in FL!

 

 

CHAD

[1badz32]

Another thing, the Army AV Commanding General just put out a policy that the age for the Army will be dropping down to 29. When this takes effect, I haven't a clue. I know that has already taken effect for the State of NY, no more WO Candidates or O grades over the age of 29. Our SAO has even said that he will not be doing any age waivers, period.

ough, thats bad for me.

Will it be over 29? Or 6 months before your 29th birthday, like how they have it worded now? If its 6 months before, I'm already out and might as well start looking for a different career path.

[redhawk]

ough, thats bad for me.

Will it be over 29? Or 6 months before your 29th birthday, like how they have it worded now? If its 6 months before, I'm already out and might as well start looking for a different career path.

 

 

I'm not sure if some state NG units are adopting this prematurely or not. But I talked with a CW5 that is at the Pentagon and he said that the policy has not been approved yet. The new policy was drafted by the General and has yet to see approval. I don't know if that means it will happen or not I'm not sure. I think its a bad idea personally even though it doesn't affect me yet. I feel the age should be raised to 35 for the Army and around 33 for the other services. I think that a 35 year old male is a lot more healthy now than 25 yo was 20 years ago. I also feel that people 25+ would make better pilots because they are more mature, seasoned, and respoonsible. There are some exceptions and they make great pilots too but I think you get what I am saying. Another thing that I think older Military pilots applicants excell in is commitment. Someone who is around 30 has been there and done that. They will be much more likely to stay until retirement than a 18-20 yo that will get the itch to explore life some.

 

Ofcourse these are just my observations and opinions about age and flying. Good luck to us all!!

[FLHooker]

i THINK it's worded that you have to be at Rucker in training by your 29th b-day, but i'm NOT POSITIVE.

[1badz32]

Right, I understand.

On the plus side, i had a chance to meet up with the Master Sargent in charge of the brand new NG air base/hanger near me. He was really helpfull, and gave me a complete tour of the facility. He seem's the type of person i'd like to work under. He gave me the chance to try my "fit" in the pilot seat of one of thier CH-47's... Ohh well *sigh*

[IWannaFly]

As far as the age limitations go, I'm not sure. This is what I found on the matter on the USAREC website:

 

...Determine the Warrant Officer (WO) Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) for which you might be qualified. The most common MOS that personnel from other services are eligible to apply for is 153A (Aviator) because this MOS requires no prior skills or training. For this MOS you must be less than 33 years of age by the convene date of the board (or request a waiver) and have 20/50 distant visual acuity, correctable with spectacles to 20/20, also note there is an Aeromedical refractive error exception to policy (LASIK/PRK information). All other Warrant Officer (WO) Military Occupational Specialties (MOSs) require you to be at least pay grade E5 or higher with 4-6 years experience in a skill that is closely associated with a WO MOS. Review the Prerequisites and Duty Descriptions part of this web site to determine if you are doing very similar work to one of the WO MOSs...

 

If the age has changed to 29, it still looks like its by the convene date of the board. Hope this helps.

 

Blake

 

Here is the website to the page where I found that information:

 

http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/WOov...AST%20Locations

Edited May 2, 2009 by IWannaFly

[1badz32]

cool, thanks for diggin up the info.

[redhawk]

I added a reply to this yesterday and for some reason or another it never showed up. Anyways, I talked to a CW5 thats detached to the Pentagon the other day. He said that this policy had been drafted by the General but has yet to see approval. So it may never happen or may happen this year. I got the gist it was not in the majorities favor of approval. I remain optimistic for you 1badz32 and for everyone else. Thats the info I have and will update when I hear more. I have a recently retired 3 star that lives up the road from me if I see him out I may stop and pick his brain. He may be willing to make some calls, don't know but will find out if I don't find something out soon.

[FLHooker]

I'll see if i can find more information about the 29 y/o thing this week.

[dnall]

Another thing, the Army AV Commanding General just put out a policy that the age for the Army will be dropping down to 29. When this takes effect, I haven't a clue. I know that has already taken effect for the State of NY, no more WO Candidates or O grades over the age of 29. Our SAO has even said that he will not be doing any age waivers, period.

I saw that, it was recommendations, nothing final yet, and AFAST going up to 110 also. That's the only two things that jumped out at me. I saw it in an Apache mag that Boeing puts out.

 

Other story I saw was Sec Gates over at Rucker talking about ramping up trng capacity to relieve the wait times, primarily referring to guard/reserve. If they do that, then I'm all for Gen Cody's recs.

Edited May 3, 2009 by dnall

[FLHooker]

AFAST to 110? I thought it was already set at that?