Limitations in the FARs

[Darren Hughes]

Can anyone tell me where in part 91 it states that we may not knowingly exceed the Limitations of an Aircraft. I'm in an argument with a guy who is telling me that it is not illigal to fly a R22 with the Low Rotor RPM warning light & horn inoperative. He needs to be set straight and i'm currently in Europe with no FAR/AIM to hand.

 

Cheers,

Darren.

[Rogue]

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance...me?OpenFrameSet

 

As far as I understand it, if its not on the MEL then its not required.

[Darren Hughes]

But if you don't have an MEL 91.213 applies, and 91.213(d)(2)(i) or (ii) if memory serves me, states that it has to be operational as per the Kinds of Operations List in the Limitation section of the POH (page 2-6 i think).

[delorean]

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance...me?OpenFrameSet

 

As far as I understand it, if its not on the MEL then its not required.

 

No, EVERYTHING in 91.205 has to be working unless you have an APPROVED MEL for your specific tail number that otherwise defers it. So thats: A/S, altimeter, manifold pressure, compass, fuel gauges, tach, oil press, oil temp, seat belts, etc.

 

And.....anything else that is listed in the limitations section of the POH......which in the R22/44 says that the low rotor RPM warning system must operative for flight (in addition to the governor, alternator, OAT gauge.)

 

Anything else (e.g. VSI, DG) can be placarded INOP or removed.

 

If you have an approved MEL, it *may* allow you to defer one of the above items, give a procedure, and set a time limit to get it fixed. For instance, a bad fuel gauge: Placard it INOP, fill both tanks to the top, and flight time will not exceed 2 hrs, must be fixed in 10 days after the day reported or a/c is unairworthy.

 

As far as the reference for things in the limitations section being law, that's somewhere in Pt. 21 or 27 I believe.......I'll look for it later.

[rick1128]

No, EVERYTHING in 91.205 has to be working unless you have an APPROVED MEL for your specific tail number that otherwise defers it. So thats: A/S, altimeter, manifold pressure, compass, fuel gauges, tach, oil press, oil temp, seat belts, etc.

 

The specific tail number requirement is not hard and fast. If you are operating more than one of the same type and that is a very loose requirement, you can have a fleet MEL. Also the FAA may authorize you to use the MMEL as your MEL, but that only applies to private owner/operators who do not operate for hire.

 

If you have an approved MEL, it *may* allow you to defer one of the above items, give a procedure, and set a time limit to get it fixed. For instance, a bad fuel gauge: Placard it INOP, fill both tanks to the top, and flight time will not exceed 2 hrs, must be fixed in 10 days after the day reported or a/c is unairworthy.

 

I don't have an MEL right in front of me, but "C" items can be extended by maintenance for reasons beyond the control of the operator. Things like parts unavailability, etc.

 

If it is not listed in the MEL, it has to work. Plus you have to use the requirements listed in the MMEL, issued by the FAA.

Edited April 28, 2009 by rick1128

[Rogue]

But if you don't have an MEL 91.213 applies, and 91.213(d)(2)(i) or (ii) if memory serves me, states that it has to be operational as per the Kinds of Operations List in the Limitation section of the POH (page 2-6 i think).

 

I like to simplify things in my mind to make them easier to remember so I think of it as if you don't have an MEL then the guidelines in the FAR become your MEL so to speak - six of one half a dozen of the other... toe-may-toe, ta-ma-toe..... so what I said may not be 100% technically correct to a lawyer but it works for me

[choppedair]

Can anyone tell me where in part 91 it states that we may not knowingly exceed the Limitations of an Aircraft. I'm in an argument with a guy who is telling me that it is not illigal to fly a R22 with the Low Rotor RPM warning light & horn inoperative. He needs to be set straight and i'm currently in Europe with no FAR/AIM to hand.

 

Cheers,

Darren.

 

91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

 

In the R44 RII POH, page 2-5,

"Flight and maneuver limitations"

Alternator, RPM governor, low RPM warning system, OAT gauge, and hydraulic control system must be operational for flight.

[Darren Hughes]

91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

 

In the R44 RII POH, page 2-5,

"Flight and maneuver limitations"

Alternator, RPM governor, low RPM warning system, OAT gauge, and hydraulic control system must be operational for flight.

 

You da man Choppedair. This tool had the stones on him to butt into my conversation with a student while we were going through the POH and tell me that I was wrong when I said "exceeding the limitations or flying without the equipment specified in the limitations is not permitted". When I argued with him for a little while he proceeded to throw in my face that he has 3500 hours and experience in the GOM and the Ditch, and that I didn't know what I was talking about. Well, let me tell you, he's gonna get schooled by a meagre 500 hour pilot tomorrow!! But don't worry, I'll do it with class, not gonna stoop to his level of humiliating people in front of others. Although, it is very tempting!

[delorean]

The specific tail number requirement is not hard and fast. If you are operating more than one of the same type and that is a very loose requirement, you can have a fleet MEL. Also the FAA may authorize you to use the MMEL as your MEL, but that only applies to private owner/operators who do not operate for hire.

 

I don't have an MEL right in front of me, but "C" items can be extended by maintenance for reasons beyond the control of the operator. Things like parts unavailability, etc.

 

If it is not listed in the MEL, it has to work. Plus you have to use the requirements listed in the MMEL, issued by the FAA.

 

You're right about "fleet MELs". That's what we have on both 135 operations I work at. We used to have all the s/n's on the front page of the MEL, but that changed a few years ago when when they having to send out revisions every few week just to change one s/n.

 

Just like a inop ELT, C items can get a pass under certain circumstances.

 

But, "it has to work" only applies for part 135/121, not 91. You can fly an R22 under part 91 with an inoperative DG, AI, VSI, turn coordinator, CHT, GPS, ADF, etc as long as they're marked INOP or removed. Under 135, everything installed has to work, UNLESS those are items are each listed in the MEL and can be deferred.

[Gomer Pylot]

Is there no MEL for R22s? The way I read 91.123, that only applies to rotorcraft for which no MEL has been developed. For all others, the MEL must be complied with.

[choppedair]

Is there no MEL for R22s? The way I read 91.123, that only applies to rotorcraft for which no MEL has been developed. For all others, the MEL must be complied with.

 

No MEL for robinsons. However there are items in the POH that must be operation for flight;

All lights for night time, low rpm warning system, governor, etc.

So if you are part 91, something doesn't work, you refer to required equip for day/night VFR, and whatever the POH says is required. If it's not required, must be removed/disable, placarded, etc.