ryanshep Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hi, First let me introduce myself, My name is Ryan and I am a newly certified private pilot. That kind of sounds like something from an AA meeting. I have lurked this forum for quite some time, anyway onto my question: I received my training in the Hughes 269C, and I am trying to budget out my instrument rating in an R22/44 but I am having a tough time deciphering SFAR 73 and my question is, does SFAR 73 require me to have ten hours of "SFAR 73" training meaning I should budget an extra 10 hours of dual in order to fulfill the requirement or can some of that training be overlapped with the instrument training? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heli.pilot Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hi, First let me introduce myself, My name is Ryan and I am a newly certified private pilot. That kind of sounds like something from an AA meeting. I have lurked this forum for quite some time, anyway onto my question: I received my training in the Hughes 269C, and I am trying to budget out my instrument rating in an R22/44 but I am having a tough time deciphering SFAR 73 and my question is, does SFAR 73 require me to have ten hours of "SFAR 73" training meaning I should budget an extra 10 hours of dual in order to fulfill the requirement or can some of that training be overlapped with the instrument training? Thanks In theory your SFAR 73 training and your instrument training could be done somewhat concurrently. Remember, SFAR 73 flight training is for: A) Enhanced training in autorotation procedures, ( Engine rotor RPM control without the use of the governor, © Low rotor RPM recognition and recovery, and (D) Effects of low G maneuvers and proper recovery procedures. The only item on that list that is likely to take any considerable time is autos. If you have only done autos in a 269, it will take some time to get used to them in an R22 or R44. Other items could be done just prior to putting the hood on for an instrument training flight, so would not add much to your flight time. I would count on taking several VFR flights to get proficient with your autos. You will likely have to enter an auto under the hood for your checkride too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witch Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I would count on taking several VFR flights to get proficient with your autos. You will likely have to enter an auto under the hood for your checkride too. Aw hell, there's no frakking way I'm gonna do an auto under any hood. That's just downright dangerous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADRidge Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Aw hell, there's no frakking way I'm gonna do an auto under any hood. That's just downright dangerous! Not really. You don't flare under the hood. At least, I didn't. You just enter to simulate an engine failure in the clouds. You break out and then recover or go full-down with the hood flipped up. It's just an auto from 1000+ agl really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pogue Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Ryan, welcome to the group! By SFAR 73 you have to have the awareness training and 10 hours dual instruction to log act as PIC as well as the SFAR flight review. You might be able to count some of your dual time from IFR, but I would plan on the 10 hours to be on the safe side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanshep Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Thanks, that's kind of what I figured, I will just budget for an extra ten hours of dual at the beginning of training. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Thanks, that's kind of what I figured, I will just budget for an extra ten hours of dual at the beginning of training. Thanks. You can't do your IFR training in a 269/300? Or do you just want to fly a Robbie for some odd reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanshep Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Yeah I figure it would be good to have experience in both, plus it's cheaper in a 22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Yeah I figure it would be good to have experience in both, plus it's cheaper in a 22. May I ask where you are that has an IFR 22? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFLY Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I instruct in Tucson in an IFR R-22 Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I just want to add something here. Do you intend to instruct at all in the R-22 or R-44? If so then keep in mind you will need to meet the following per SFAR 73: 200 hours total time in helicopters 50 hours in the R-22 to teach 50 hours in the R-44 to teach, however, you can use 25 hours from your R-22 training towards the 50 hour R-44 requirement Don't sell yourself short, if you get close to 50 hours of R-22 time you might as well stick around and get all 50. This way at the end you'll meet the CFI requirements for Robinsons and be qualified to teach in both. I did all my training in the 300 except the instrument which I did in the R-22. I did get my 50 hours and ironicaly I ended up being a CFI in the R-22. So you never know. It's up to you what to do, no one can tell you. JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 It's a good thing to do autos under the hood, just not into the flare obviously. Your instructor should simulate IFR emergencies and engine failures would be one. Just simulate a break out of the clouds at some point. JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanshep Posted May 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 I just want to add something here. Do you intend to instruct at all in the R-22 or R-44? If so then keep in mind you will need to meet the following per SFAR 73: 200 hours total time in helicopters 50 hours in the R-22 to teach 50 hours in the R-44 to teach, however, you can use 25 hours from your R-22 training towards the 50 hour R-44 requirement Don't sell yourself short, if you get close to 50 hours of R-22 time you might as well stick around and get all 50. This way at the end you'll meet the CFI requirements for Robinsons and be qualified to teach in both. I did all my training in the 300 except the instrument which I did in the R-22. I did get my 50 hours and ironicaly I ended up being a CFI in the R-22. So you never know. It's up to you what to do, no one can tell you. JD That is exactly why I wanted to train in the 22! I figure might as well keep my options open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoFlyer Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 Aw hell, there's no frakking way I'm gonna do an auto under any hood. That's just downright dangerous! I think it would be dangerous NOT to simulate autos under IFR. Just imagine trying to recover from an unusual attitude (the yaw) while lowering collective (wants to pitch down) while trying to slow down and not become disoriented. Obviously you aren't going to try to land or do a power recovery under the hood. Hopefully you would break out before then. However, to that end, I have practiced autos under simulated instrument and not "broken out" until 50-75 feet. That's why most (not all) helicopter IFR is in multi-engine ships, if they lose an engine, they still have the opportunity to land under power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 That's why most (not all) helicopter IFR is in multi-engine ships, if they lose an engine, they still have the opportunity to land under power. So wouldn't it be better to practice them in one of those ships, not a single engine piston Robbie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 So wouldn't it be better to practice them in one of those ships, not a single engine piston Robbie? Emergencies are a required part of the Instrument checkride and an engine failure a prime helicopter emergency. The examiner will expect you to maintain control of the helicopter. If you KNOW which direction the wind is coming from, then you should state that and turn into the wind. As for twin engine helicopters, a majority of engine failures are fuel related. Since both engines run off the same fuel system. The second engine failure is not far behind. And if one engine comes apart, it normally throws the fragments into the other engine. Again the other engine is likely to soon fail. Other than that, we are talking a bout a checkride. As long as it is within the PTS, the RFM and the Examiner guidance it is fair game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 There have been a few EMS helicopters(twins) where they either had an engine failure or had to shut the engine down due to a chip light. If I can find the links I will post the info. This kind of thing doesn't get posted on FAA.gov or the NTSB site so it's hard to say how often it happens. There are IFR singles out there so training for an IFR engine failure is a must. Even in a twin it is possible to loss both engines although not as common. JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanshep Posted May 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 (edited) Follow up question: Does one need a specific R-44 AND R-22 SFAR 73 sign off, it seems like the pitfalls of flying these ships (mast bumping/ low-inertia rotor system) are the same so it doesn't make sense why one would need both, but then again what do I know? Thanks Edited May 17, 2009 by ryanshep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pogue Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Does one need a specific R-44 AND R-22 SFAR 73 sign off, it seems like the pitfalls of flying these ships (mast bumping/ low-inertia rotor system) are the same so it doesn't make sense why one would need both, but then again what do I know?Yes - an R-22 SFAR sign off counts as a flight review in anything except an R-44 and vice/versa. I managed to space mine out so every year I do one or the other. The phrase "make sense" should probably not be used when discussing the finer details of Federal Regulations.... <_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanshep Posted May 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Yes - an R-22 SFAR sign off counts as a flight review in anything except an R-44 and vice/versa. I managed to space mine out so every year I do one or the other. The phrase "make sense" should probably not be used when discussing the finer details of Federal Regulations.... I should have figured that! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Ryan, welcome to the group! By SFAR 73 you have to have the awareness training and 10 hours dual instruction to log act as PIC as well as the SFAR flight review. You might be able to count some of your dual time from IFR, but I would plan on the 10 hours to be on the safe side. Just a technicality, but you can LOG PIC without the SFAR 73 sign-off. You just cannot ACT as PIC without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted May 17, 2009 Report Share Posted May 17, 2009 Just a technicality, but you can LOG PIC without the SFAR 73 sign-off. You just cannot ACT as PIC without it. Interesting. Hadn't heard of that. JD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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