R44 Astro

[adam32]

How are the Astro's to fly since they don't have hydraulics? Hows their power?

[rotormandan]

horrible

[Wannabe1]

My experience is limited to 7 hours in an Astro. The power seemed fine, but the cyclic required a lot of effort near and in hover. The trim compensation contraption didn't seem to help any.

[helorob]

I have about 15 hours in an Astro, and did not like it very much. The power is fine, but the electric servo contraption is awful. I would rather fly something with no hydraulics .

 

Essentially, as you move the cyclic there is resistance up to a certain point. Then the trim kicks in and it goes limp in the direction you are pushing. In my case, this leads to over-controlling and pilot induced oscillation . I did get better with it after a few hours, but it was more work to fly. After going to the Raven and Raven II, I would not go back. My opinion is that the hydraulics are worth the extra expense.

 

If you want to feel the trim system, just go in the hanger and power up without starting the engine. The trim system will work and you can feel the way the cyclic moves (not sure if you need to pop the clutch breaker and activate the clutch switch).

 

Some of the other pilots were fine with it.... Just my opinion.

[kodoz]

Echo what everybody else said. The trim seems to make overcontrolling a given, altho if you flew it enough I'm sure you'd adapt. Thankfully, that bird went down for it's 2200 and I never had to adapt to it.

[TomPPL]

Only advantage i can see is they are way cheaper to buy.

[Marc D]

Only advantage i can see is they are way cheaper to buy.

 

 

I agree. I have 1100 hours in them. You do get used to the cyclic and heavy collective, but it is very annoying, especially at altitude. At 8000 feet--turbulence can rip the controls right out of your hands.

The performance charts in the book are right on.

[adam32]

Okay, well I would of course rather operate a Raven I or II, but the Astro is the only one available to me right now...might have to take a chance on it...theres no way the collective is worse then Hillers...

[delorean]

I have 500 hrs in the Astro and about 25 in the Raven I.

 

The power and overall helicopter is the same, but the cyclic is totally different.

 

The Astro's servo system was junk. RHC knew it, Frank knew it, the customers knew it. They knew it so well that every R44 after about s/n 0200 had the new gearbox with a provision to mount the hydraulic pump and the frame change for the servos and res. They were ready to go hydraulic, they just couldn't find a system they liked for the weight (like the R66 w/ the right turbine.)

 

The Astro's servo system was like a poor man's SAS. It wasn't a true SAS, but it tried to be. It had about two dozen load cells mounted on the bottom of the cyclic tube. It would measure the stress and strain imposed on the cyclic, then servos would shift the springs to balance out the load. There was a hat controller on the cyclic to fine tune it.

 

They had a special test box to adjust it. You'd plug a multimeter into the box, then plug the test box into the controller under the left seat. It was about a 20-30 minute process to readjust the system, but ours needed it every 100 hr.

 

The system sucked because of the lag. The rotor system already has a lag in it, no this made it a two stage lag. On a windy day, or trying to do slope landings, it was just easier to center it out with the hat switch, then turn it off.

 

You would do a pedal turn, feel the increased force from having to compensate for the crosswind in the cyclic. Then as you tensed up your arm or added the slight bit of right/left cyclic, you'd feel the cyclic move left or right and taking the force that you just tensed up for. It felt to me like I was always fighting the thing. Trying to do quick, large moves (touch down autos, 180s, etc), you REALLY had to fight it. Just easier to turn it off.

 

Also, after several hundred hours the motors slowed down, that really compounded the problem.

 

Originally they had a lead filled "bean bag" tied to the center bar of the t-bar to cut down on the stick shake. Later, they changed that to a 12 lbs tungsten milled weight. They also had the second counter weight to install when you had the duals out.

 

They replaced that second counter weight with a hairspring, and the hydraulics eliminated the need for the center mounted one. With the removal of all the weights, motors, controller box, springs, etc, the hydraulic system hardly added any weight what-so-ever (if not lowered it.)

 

BTW, you CAN convert an Astro to hydros, but you were looking at around $60K. That was 6-7 yrs ago, not sure how much it is now. Make sure it has the newer gear box & frame (after s/n 0200something.)

[Goldy]

BTW, you CAN convert an Astro to hydros, but you were looking at around $60K. That was 6-7 yrs ago, not sure how much it is now. Make sure it has the newer gear box & frame (after s/n 0200something.)

 

Last quote I saw was around 45K for the add on hydraulics. Yes, make sure it is the later model box first.

 

Astro's are damn cheap right now. Under 100K with 100 hours left to overhaul.

 

Goldy

[adam32]

Thanks for the info Delorean, it will be on a lease so putting hydraulics on it isn't an option for me...

[Goldy]

Thanks for the info Delorean, it will be on a lease so putting hydraulics on it isn't an option for me...

 

Pay an extra $10-15 bucks an hour on the lease and have the owner add the hydraulics...just a thought!

[rotormandan]

Okay, well I would of course rather operate a Raven I or II, but the Astro is the only one available to me right now...might have to take a chance on it...theres no way the collective is worse then Hillers...

 

 

Your right there but the Hiller cyclic is much better.

[goromadgo]

Hmmm apparently I have a different opinion than everyone else in here. I fly the Astro as much as possible because I get a nice discount over our two Ravens. At first I hated it since it really doesn't make much of a difference with or without trim. One of the other students even asked during trim check "Ummm it feels the same, is that normal?" Yup. Anyways, after getting used to it I prefer it over one with hydraulics, especially when doing hydraulics failure It also seems to have quite a bit more power than the Ravens. The Ravens are pretty gutless, always have to take what I can get for climbing on warm days whereas the Astro climbs easily. I don't mind flying with hydraulics, but I tend to over control the Ravens when I switch back from the Astro. Either way it's just like a bicycle. A few minutes back on the stick and it is just another helo. Personal preference I guess. I'll take the extra power for a bit of an arm workout

[cavin]

I have flown all, and if the trim motors on the Astro are working and adjusted properly it really trims out nice.

If the trim motors are not adjusted properly then you can help relieve the stick pressure with your knee/leg braced against your hand.

FYI trim motors are expensive, make sure they are working. The adjustment is cheap and easy to do.

An astro out of trim is better than a slower heli with not much power if you know what I mean!

[AD13]

I have flown all, and if the trim motors on the Astro are working and adjusted properly it really trims out nice.

If the trim motors are not adjusted properly then you can help relieve the stick pressure with your knee/leg braced against your hand.

FYI trim motors are expensive, make sure they are working. The adjustment is cheap and easy to do.

An astro out of trim is better than a slower heli with not much power if you know what I mean!

I could not agree more. The cyclic on the Astro that I have flown (when adjusted properly) flew like a champ and (believe it or not) you could even momentarily let go of the cyclic in flight and the thing wouldn't move a bit!

If the trim motors are adjusted, it is just fine. Out of adjustment trim motors mean aggravation.

Tip:

When the ship is shut down, BE SURE to keep the cyclic friction on TIGHT and BE SURE to have the cyclic friction centered or even pulled aft a bit, since these magnets will center themselves to where- ever the cyclic stays, i.e. if the cyclic is left in a forward position when friction is applied, chances are the trim won't pull it back to center when you turn the trim on, so you'll then have a constant forward pressure on the cyclic until you have the trim motor adjusted again.

All in all, they (Astros) have more power since they are lighter than the Ravens and I am told the ENG crews love the Astros because of the lighter weight/more power.