Attention AG pilots and others that wear helmets.....

[avbug]

Can we not turn this topic into another childish, look how far I can piss thread?

 

Add to that post 49. Some say it's not possible to ask a stupid question, but helonorth has proven otherwise, in addition to childish posts attempting to determine just how far she can piss.

[helonorth]

Thank you for that, buzzkill. Apparently the question is out of the realm of avbug's extensive knowledge base, which is pretty shocking, considering he's the the best hangar talker I've met in at least a week. I guess tracon was right: when it comes to getting information from avbug, seek advice elsewhere.

[aeroscout]

HeloNorth, you probably missed this post.

 

In addition to this post, helonorth, you apparently didn't read the tracon thread too well. Are you holding the position that an approach to a closed runway cannot be authorized or executed ?

[helonorth]

In addition to this post, helonorth, you apparently didn't read the tracon thread too well. Are you holding the position that an approach to a closed runway cannot be authorized or executed ?

Are you serious?

[SBuzzkill]

Thank you for that, buzzkill. Apparently the question is out of the realm of avbug's extensive knowledge base, which is pretty shocking, considering he's the the best hangar talker I've met in at least a week. I guess tracon was right: when it comes to getting information from avbug, seek advice elsewhere.

 

Hahaha

[helonorth]

And that wasn't very nice: trying to insult me by calling me a girl! I can see that coming from a "rubber boned" teenager, but not from someone of your stature!

[Gomer Pylot]

I wear a skullcap in the summer, not so often in the winter. Sitting on a highway in central Texas in August, with the skids sinking into the asphalt, it's so hot that the sweat rolls into my ears and I don't like that. The skullcap absorbs some of it, and I don't feel the rivulets as much. I wear CEPs, which take care of the noise. The only real use for the helmet is as a place to hang the NVGs. Otherwise it's just an annoyance.

[500E]

Gomer

Regarding your last line.

Tell that to a friend that had a major tail rotor failure & crash, 2 vertebrae crushed + a piece of canopy embedded in his brain , he had just stooped wearing a helmet, It encouraged me to think again about protection &have just started wearing a helmet, strange at first but getting used to it.

He is progressing & they hope he will recover fully as do his friends, please think of the message you give to newbies & oldies if the worst happens it could help.

How many lives have seat belt & crash helmets saved, I am not for making them mandatory either, I also find the visors "pale yellow & semi dark" better than sunglasses

[avbug]

Way back when I didn't take protective gear that seriously. When I first began ag work in Pawnees and AgTrucks, we didn't wear them. I had an old surplus SPH-3 back then, even painted it up because it was a bit of a wreck, but fortunately didn't really use it much because it might have been worse than nothing. It was too loose; I snapped my head one direction one day and the helmet didn't move; I found myself staring into the earcup. Surplus gear that doesn't fit well can be a hazard.

 

I don't wear skull caps as a rule, but I do carry a rag for wiping away sweat. I'm usually completely soaked by the time I take my helmet off.

 

A long time ago I was lax about personal protective equipment, and an old hand (since killed on the job) brought me a film made about a UH-1 pilot in Vietnam. The individual made it as a service announcement to encourage others to properly wear their helmets, visors,nomex, gloves, and boots. He was badly burned everywhere that wasn't covered, but was fine where his gear had been covering his skin. Where he rolled up his sleeves, rather than keeping them down and overlapping them at the wrists with his gloves, his forearms were melted, as was his neck where his collar wasn't up. Below his visor his face was also melted, and he described the process after the fact in recovery. The irony was that he survived the crash, but was burned going back to rescue another (who, as it turned out, was already dead).

 

Wear your protective gear. I found out first-hand the importance of having effective, fitted, properly-used personal protective equipment, following an engine failure during a very active wildfire. Don't wait until that point in time to find out for yourself.

[Gomer Pylot]

One can always bring up anecdotal cases, but in more than 40 years of flying helicopters, I don't recall a single civilian survivable crash in which a helmet or Nomex would have made a difference. IMO, helmets cause more injuries than they prevent, because of the extra weight which causes neck injuries that would otherwise not occur. They may prevent a few head injuries, but I don't believe the cost/benefit ratio favors them for most scenarios. I don't do ag or logging, nor are unfriendly folks shooting at me with tracers or RPGs. I just drive from hospital to hospital. But in the EMS world, looking cool and advertising is more important than almost anything else. You're certainly welcome to wear your helmet if you want, and I wear mine because it's required. We will not come to an agreement on this subject, so I'm bailing on yet another thread you've jumped into.

[aeroscout]

Even a glancing blow from a main rotor during it's normal path, or an abnormal path can easily cause enough head trauma to kill or permanently maim. Wearing a helmet in such an instance will reduce or eliminate injury. It doesn't take much head trauma to make your day a dark one.

[SBuzzkill]

Visors save your face in the event of a bird strike and protect your face from fire. Helmets come in handy in dynamic rollovers too, where your head is going to be slammed around like a lottory ball. Hell even running into the ground at 80kts is survivable (and I know someone who has done it) and having a helmet in that situation can be the difference between life and death. A properly fitted helmet shouldn't be uncomfortable to wear, although it might get a little hot. Personally I've never had too much trouble with heat though, and we wear gloves, boots, helmets, full coverage pants and jackets, vests, and sit in black cockpits.

 

One thing they wont do is protect your head from bullets. They're for everything else that can happen to you. I'm not sure where you're getting your information about helmets having more potential for injury, but everything I have been taught says otherwise.

Edited January 3, 2012 by SBuzzkill

[500E]

" can always bring up anecdotal cases "

Nothing anecdotal about this one Gomer he is a person I know, in a well maintained ship.

Sorry to make you feel not wanted a lot of your comments are sharp & to the point, but this was a survivable accident, just with a lot less problems & on going trauma if he had had a helmet on.

[avbug]

so I'm bailing on yet another thread you've jumped into.

 

This is a thread about people with ag experience wearing helmets, and their experience with those helmets. You see a problem with people who have ag experience and helmets participating?

 

Interesting.

 

There are a lot of good reasons to wear a helmet, and not one that I can think of to not wear the helmet.

 

I've done EMS; a lot of it. I've done firefighting. A lot of it. Ag, considerably. And a lot of other flying in a very wide variety of operations, from high altitude thunderstorm research to low level operations involving chasing and tracking game, back country charter, survey work, surveillance, various emergency operations, government operations, etc.

 

My helmet has done more to protect me from bouncing off parts of the cockpit while operating at low level in the mountains in turbulence than it's done to protect me during a crash or forced landing, but it's done that job, too.

 

I've been through flashover chambers and training over 40 times, and I have yet to find anyone that would decry the use of proper protective gear.

 

You really don't think a helmet has saved anyone in an civilian aircraft? You really believe that? You really think that protective gear hasn't protected people from flash burns and fires? I can personally testify otherwise, but you probably don't want to hear that, especially from someone who may have actually invaded your thread ("jumped into") with relevant experience and insight.

 

Shame.

[helonorth]

Zero to tiresome, tedious and boring, in record time! You's the best, avbug!

[Tarantula]

My agency recently went through testing of different helmets with the plan to standardize all of us helicopter pilots with the same gear (right now we have a mix of Gentex HGU and SPH).

 

One thing that came out in the research is that the Gallet helmets are not as crashworthy as the Gentex Helmets. I don't know the reference for this but was wondering if anyone else can verify.

 

Also, I don't wear a skull cap because the ones I've tried cover my ears and reduce the seal, thus letting more noise in. For those who wear a skull cap, do you do anything about this or just live with it?

I'd never heard this, so I did some googling and all I can find is other people stating the same thing without a reference.

I just found this on http://store.tigerpe...ison-chart.aspx

Gallet helmets are certified under MIL-DTL-87174A (USAF) *ANSI-Z-90-1 while Gentex are under FNS/PO-9615 (DOD/Gov.)

It shows Gallet test for: 400 Gs Maximum @ 47.5 joules input energy 4.36 meters/sec. NTE 200 Gs @ 3 meters/sec. NTE 150 Gs @ 6 meters/sec. Front, Rear, Side & Crown, Hot & Cold Flat Anvil and Hemisphereical

Gentex tests for: Crown-150 Gs @4.8 meters/sec. Lateral-150 Gs @ 6.0 meters/sec. Headband-175 Gs @ 6.0 meters/sec.

 

All in all they are pretty close.

[Rupert]

I have worn the SPH4, SPH5, HGU55, HGU56, and the HGU84.

 

For the average head, the SPH4, with webbing, represents the best compromise between comfort and head protection. I doubt if you will find a decent SPH4 on the used market. Friends who modify SPH4's and SPH5's with aftermarket padding report them as exquisitely comfortable but hot.

 

I have in the past preferred the HGU55 for its lightness and close fit; however, neither Gentex nor Flightsuits will sell this helmet to helicopter pilots because of liability to law suits. Too bad, because the HGU55 offers enough protection but also fits in the bubble window of a door for vertical reference work, and it also allows more head movement in a tight cockpit.

 

I presently fly with an HGU56 with active sound reduction. I like the light weight and fit. Friends who fly with the HGU84 say the same thing about their helmets.

 

Some years back I wrote an article on helmets for Aeromedical Journal. As part of that article I interviewed some helmet development people who go all the way back to the original SPH4, working with cadaver heads to find the center of gravity of the human head. One of them worked as an accident investigator for the US Army and for several years attended every fatal helicopter accident in the Army. He told me he did not attend even one fatal accident in which the helmet played a decisive role. People who die in helicopter accidents tend to die of multiple fatal injuries. Helmets protect the wearer from head injuries in less-than-fatal accidents.

 

The current helmet offerings require extensive fitting. Expect to spend several hours adjusting webbing and padding. Don't bother with heating the liner. Instead remove layers of "bubble wrap" and cut sections out of it with scissors. When you get one of the modern helmets right, you forget you have it on your head.

 

Oh, and I've found that foam earplugs serve as well or better than Active Noise Reduction. Save your money.

[aeroscout]

You didn't mention CEP's.

[avbug]

I have in the past preferred the HGU55 for its lightness and close fit; however, neither Gentex nor Flightsuits will sell this helmet to helicopter pilots because of liability to law suits. Too bad, because the HGU55 offers enough protection but also fits in the bubble window of a door for vertical reference work, and it also allows more head movement in a tight cockpit.

 

If you ask them for the helmet specifically for helicopter applications, that may be true, but otherwise, they don't ask and don't care. I bought a HGU-55/P from Flight Suits that was a great deal; it was on their overrun list; it was actually made for a boating team, painted in the boating colors, and the team didn't take all the helmets. I got it with the correct avionics and had it custom fit, using earcups rather than elephant ears. It's lightweight, and works great. It came bright yellow, but also at a substantial discount from what I would have otherwise paid, and was brand new. It came in Kevlar, which was my specification, rather than e-glass fiber ply or glass matting; it provides better protection from penetration than glass.

 

Cord adapters can be used to mate the helmet to whatever aircraft is desired, without difficulty.

 

I don't use CEP. I don't use active noise reduction in a helmet, because it reduces too much noise or noise perception for my comfort (I like to be able to hear the aircraft, slipstream, etc), although I do use it in aircraft in which only a headset is appropriate.

Helmets protect the wearer from head injuries in less-than-fatal accidents.

 

I think that's a key point that many often miss. A helmet may well save your life, but a helmet may save your life in many ways. Avoiding getting knocked out while operating in rough air, to live to land, may be one of those ways; my helmet has done more for me by protecting my noggin from the airplane in normal flying operations than it's done in otherwise-fatal crashes; one doesn' thave those very often, one hopes. Getting slammed around over fires and other places, however, keeping my head safe from the aircraft, the helmet has proven most useful.

 

I learned about helmets starting out in fixed wing ag, and learned their value the hard way. I know a lot of individuals who wouldn't be here, myself included, if it weren't for a good helmet. I agree, however, that there is more value to the helmet than simply protecting one's head in a fatal crash. The old joke that "his body is burned beyond recognition and his arms are severed, and his heart was pierced by structure and rocks, but at least his head is in good shape!" is still funny, but true.

 

Oh, and I've found that foam earplugs serve as well or better than Active Noise Reduction. Save your money.

 

In a helmet I agree. In a headset, a good ANR setup can reduce fatigue and really improve communications. Improving communications is the primary reason for the avionics in the headset and helmet, of course, and where the helmet already quiets things considerably, headsets not as much; ANR in headsets makes it a lot easier to understand strange accents and difficult radio conversations. Trying to communicate long distance over an HF radio, for example, is difficult. It's not something that most here will have to do, but it does test the usefulness of communication equipment, especially a headset, and ANR makes a world of difference. Likewise, I spend a lot of time listening to or talking to foreign controllers and pilots, and it's a lot easier to communicate with ANR.

 

Putting ANR in a helmet is a dividing line between better communication and being able to interact with the aircraft by hearing what's going on. I've found that I hear just fine in my helmet, without ANR. Wearing foam earplugs in an exceptionally noisy environment is great, and in some aircraft it's a big plus even under a headclamp headset like a david clark with extra padding. ANR provides a perceived reduction in noise within a fairly narrow frequency range.

 

One thing that ANR does do is reduce fatigue on long flights or during long flight days. On day when I've put 8-12 hours or more in flying, then ANR has made a considerable difference in the way I felt.

[SBuzzkill]

Excellent points avbug. I feel the same way about hearing the aircraft.

[Hotdogs]

I have in the past preferred the HGU55 for its lightness and close fit; however, neither Gentex nor Flightsuits will sell this helmet to helicopter pilots because of liability to law suits. Too bad, because the HGU55 offers enough protection but also fits in the bubble window of a door for vertical reference work, and it also allows more head movement in a tight cockpit.

 

Did Gentex or Flightsuits say specifically why they caused lawsuits? I have heard rumors from pilots about the HGU55 not preventing enough side to side impact.

[avbug]

The HGU-55 was designed for fixed wing aircraft; it's there to protect your noggin during an ejection or any of the other things that happen during tactical fixed wing flight. It's light weight so it doesn't impose a big strain on your neck during maneuvering.

 

The HGU-84 is designed for helicopter work.

 

I've put my HGU-55/P to the test in the field and I'm still alive to say it works.

 

I don't know about law suits attached to the helmet, and I did have my helmet shell custom made in kevlar rather than standard fiberglass, but it works very, very well. Anybody can get sued for almost anything these days, so the fact that a law suit occurred doesn't necessarily equate to whether or not the helmet will protect you. It's far, far better than having nothing when it comes to impact.

[far137oh58c]

I currently wear Gallet. Have had various makes over the years. Current helmet is the most comfortable with full Oregon Aero gel kit. No ANR needed with the gel ear kit. My 2ng Gallet has the speaker wired into the ear plug. That works great also, espicially when using my music player. For me, it works. Currently flying Huey.

[aeroscout]

Aw, don't get so bent out of shape, bug. I was merely thanking you for the contribution of your laundry tip. I guess you're still mad because tracon owned you petty good. I would give you the same advice: stick to what you know, but I'll add, not things you think you know. You'll get embarrassed! Happy new year!

 

You liked this post so much, you "liked" it yourself. I'll refrain.

[zippiesdrainage]

Is there any career path within the helicopter industry that provides helmets to the pilot or does everyone require the pilot to buy their own if they want one?