ideal heli for expedition yacht - AS 350 vs. 407

[Expedition yacht Panama]

We're planning to operate a helicopter on our 132ft expedition yacht (see heli section on www.expeditionyacht.org) and had kind of decided on the AS 350B3. But somebody told us to also look at the Bell 407.

 

We'd love to hear opinions one what would be the best helicopter from the pilot's perspective. We're talking about a small helipad, about 8 ft. max. clearance between the main rotor blad tip and the exhaust stage.

 

The vessel is equipped with stabilizers and when the weather if tough, we wouldn't fly but still some movement cannot be excluded.

 

Is approach in one of these helicopters easier than in the other?

 

Any feedback is welcome.

 

And if you're looking for a job 14-18 months from now in Panama for some exciting bush flying, we'd like to hear from qualified and experienced pilots.

 

Thorwald Westmaas

project manager

www.expeditionyacht.org

www.balboaexplorer.com

3D_expedition_yacht.pdf

[IGM]

Thorwald, interesting question.

You may and should consider AS350B2 in lieu of B3 as a bit les expensive < derated engine > but much easier to fly ..and absolutely - NO to BH407. BH407 is just glorified BH206 - that was stretched a bit and both front seats being crumped...wel visibilty is not good compare with AS350B2 ...

Kind regards,

IGM.

[adam32]

For the tight clearance, you may also look at the MD line of helicopters...

 

Oh, and being over water, I would consider a twin engine...

Edited July 26, 2009 by adam32

[Expedition yacht Panama]

Thanks guys.

 

Looks like the favorite is the Eurocopter. I must admit, I think the guests will prefer it too because of the (forward looking) visibility.

 

We may also consider a EC 130B, that would give us even give us space for an extra passenger and although the view will be great, more than 30-40 minutes on that those seats may become uncomfortable.

 

According to the Conklin & Decker report, the Eurocopter is actually cheaper to operate.

 

Thorwald

[Expedition yacht Panama]

Ahh, Adam,

 

We'll stick with 1 engine. I know it's an age-old debate but we feel comfortable with it. Of course we'll have pop-up floats and we'll never be more than 2 miles from any coast .

 

And have VERY clean fuel :-)

 

We exclude the MD500 for comfort reasons.

 

Thorwald

[adam32]

Have you looked at the 600N or the Explorer?

 

If you and your pilots are comfortable with one engine then I have no problem with it either, just giving another option.

[helonorth]

Thorwald, interesting question.

You may and should consider AS350B2 in lieu of B3 as a bit les expensive < derated engine > but much easier to fly ..and absolutely - NO to BH407. BH407 is just glorified BH206 - that was stretched a bit and both front seats being crumped...wel visibilty is not good compare with AS350B2 ...

Kind regards,

IGM.

You couldn't be more wrong about the 407. Has very little in common with a 206. Loads of power and flies like a dream. Pilot's seat not built for big guys but pedal extenders solve the problem. You can fill all 7 seats and the baggage and still take almost 2 hours of fuel. For the enviroment we fly it in (offshore), it is very reliable (much more than Astars). I have no problem with vis. I have about 1000 hours in it and love it. Most mechanics like it because of

its relative simplicity and good supply of spares. The complaints I hear about the Astars is

corrosion (especially in wiring) and difficultly in accessing it.

I've done a fair amount of ship ops. Plenty of TR authority so down wind/crosswind

approaches

(within reason)

are easily and safely done with caution. Now about that job...

Edited July 26, 2009 by helonorth

[Expedition yacht Panama]

You couldn't be more wrong about the 407. Has very little in common with a 206. Loads of power and flies like a dream. ...... You can fill all 7 seats and the baggage and still take almost 2 hours of fuel. For the enviroment we fly it in (offshore), it is very reliable (much more than Astars). ....

 

I've heard that too. My concern is more the visibility for the clients; in the Astars they can all look forward. the EC130c even allows 2 on the front row. From the client's perspective, that's a great plus. And the more they rave about their experience, the more hours they book :-).

[adam32]

How many passengers? Have you thought about an Enstrom 480B? You could probably buy 3 of them for the price of a B3 A-star...just a thought...

[rotorrodent]

We're planning to operate a helicopter on our 132ft expedition yacht (see heli section on www.expeditionyacht.org) and had kind of decided on the AS 350B3. But somebody told us to also look at the Bell 407.

 

We'd love to hear opinions one what would be the best helicopter from the pilot's perspective. We're talking about a small helipad, about 8 ft. max. clearance between the main rotor blad tip and the exhaust stage.

 

The vessel is equipped with stabilizers and when the weather if tough, we wouldn't fly but still some movement cannot be excluded.

 

Is approach in one of these helicopters easier than in the other?

 

Any feedback is welcome.

 

And if you're looking for a job 14-18 months from now in Panama for some exciting bush flying, we'd like to hear from qualified and experienced pilots.

 

Thorwald Westmaas

project manager

www.expeditionyacht.org

www.balboaexplorer.com

 

Judging by the conceptual drawings (pdf), the ship hasn't given you much room to work with. How can you possibly conduct a good preflight with the tail hanging over the water by 10 feet? Also, consider the slipstream effects of the ship if you are conducting air ops while underway. If not, the ship will continually have to "nose to the wind" in order for you to make recoveries. Again, not much room for x-wind ops.

 

Cheers

 

Rotorrodent

[helonorth]

I've heard that too. My concern is more the visibility for the clients; in the Astars they can all look forward. the EC130c even allows 2 on the front row. From the client's perspective, that's a great plus. And the more they rave about their experience, the more hours they book :-).

The Astar can be converted to 7 seats. Several B2s for sale that way. If you're not going to high

elevations, I would not spend the money for a B3.

[IGM]

And just to follow up - I do agree with precise comments on BH407 ....yes indeed she does fly and she does have power !

Nevertheless AS350B2 or EC120 with floats teh way to go...ot as a start up You can "experiment: with schweizer 300 CB or CBI on Floats...

Twin engines - Noooooooooo !! You just go into drink faster .....

MD without tailrotor - Nooooooooooooooooo.

MD 500 - yes if You plan to carry for very short duration two people....and a cat ....

But probably the most capable frame for the size given...

 

In any situation the most critical question - how prevent intercation between salt spray / mist and aluminum frame ??? And engine....

Any ideas, anyody ??

regards,

 

IGM.

[EC120AV8R]

These types of questions always start the Bell v. Eurocopter wars. While the 407 would certainly fit your criteria, I would agree that the back seat visibility in the 130 or AS350 is much better. You don't have the bulkhead between the front and rear seats. It really does make quite a difference. Sit in a 407, both front and back. Then go sit in a EC130 or AS350 and your choice will be made.

 

In my opinion, The EC130 would be an excellent ship for your needs.

[Expedition yacht Panama]

Judging by the conceptual drawings (pdf), the ship hasn't given you much room to work with. How can you possibly conduct a good preflight with the tail hanging over the water by 10 feet? Also, consider the slipstream effects of the ship if you are conducting air ops while underway. If not, the ship will continually have to "nose to the wind" in order for you to make recoveries. Again, not much room for x-wind ops.

 

Cheers

 

Rotorrodent

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

Yes, we're aware of the preflight issue. If turning around the heli 150 degrees doesn't bring the tailroter within reach, what we plan to do is extend the helideck rearwards abbout 2 ft and have a lightweight removable extension, just 3 ft. wide that extends 10 ft. to the rear. The forward end stays partly 'inside' (below) the helidefck; the rear end is supported by a support strut from below. Not ideal and not to be used in rough seas ! but then we won't be taking off either!

 

As to slipstream effects, we'll slow down or turn into the wind. Most times we'll operated being at anchor.

 

Thorwald

[Rick McWilliams]

I am new to helicopters but have considerable boat experience. That is an attractive vessel. I am particularly fond of the curved shear and blue hull.

 

Your upper deck is very crowded for helicopter operations. I presume that helideck side railings retract like the aft railing. You might relocate or eliminate the aft mast. Two masts are not required for vessels under 50m. I suspect the aft mast may be difficult to relocate as it might contain machinery exhaust and engine room ventilation.

 

Be careful not to advertise the helipad as such. There are many peculiar vessel design safety requirements. The skid shoes will be tough on any deck.

 

Be sure to have a high pressure fresh or distilled water wash down capability on the upper deck. The water should be 10ppm TDS for best effect.

 

What kind of stabilization do you have for at anchor conditions? I would expect that 2 ft and 2 degrees would be about the safe limit. Tropical conditions tend to have still air or wind in excess of 15 knots.

[Expedition yacht Panama]

Dear Rick,

 

Thanks a lot for the 'yacht' feedback.

 

Glad you like the vessel too! I agree she's a beauty!

 

Yes, the helideck side and rear railings retract. The deck will be extend about another 2 ft. to the rear (not shown in the drawing). Not so great for esthetics but it will give us almost 10 ft. of clearance with the exhaust stag in the rear mast which you correctly assumed is there.

 

The heli deck is over 6 m. wide (about 19 ft.) . If the pilot cannot put it down on such a deck, he wont' be our pilot. I've seen other helipads, I've spoken with tuna boat pilots. They see no particular issue with the size of our deck.

 

We will indeed not say it's a certified helipad. We can't comply with the D-diameter regulations for instance and new MCA LY2 code. But we will comply with the CAP 437 requirements wherever we can, including fire fighting equipment. Legally, however, that big yellow H and the landing lights are purely decoration :-).

 

We'll use a composite material called Bolith which is also used on off-shore helidecks. And maybe some piece of carpet wrapped around the skids?

 

We'll have at anchor stabilizers (rotary ones, see our blog www.expeditionyacht.org) . Wind is good for helicopters; that gives you lift. But we don't want turbulence so depending on the conditions the approach to land will be different.

 

If you have any other questions or concerns, feel free to write me.

 

Thorwald

[dave7373]

I agree with the previous comments regarding the 407. Tons of power and alot more room than a 206. I also agree howver the Astar has better visability. Like others said, the B3 would be a huge waste of money, both initial and hourly expense inless you plan on going way up there, on a regular basis.

[Spike]

Late to the discussion but I’ll add my 2c anyway.

 

Firstly, the Astar is called a “squirrel” for a reason. Couple this with the flexible steel skid strips, boat landings should be interesting (BTDT). Just make sure your passengers are strapped in tightly……

 

Secondly, the passenger visibility issue depends on your perspective. The AS350 provides window seat for 3 passengers. With the 407 it’s 5.....

Edited August 6, 2009 by Spike

[Reliefmech]

Hello all! Very interesting conversation here. I'm a 14 year offshore mechanic with experience on the ec120, as350 b2-3 and the 407. I'll break down what I have learned about each airframe in a salt water enviroment from a non bias standpoint.

 

EC120- The tail boom will have corrosion issues in a salt enviroment. Parts are slow to get and the windwos constantly de-bond. The hydraulic system is a weak point with leaks and pump failures.

 

AS350- This is a strong reliable machine but parts are slow. We have seen starflex failures from wind damage so make sure you have enough room to completely tie down the blades in case of high winds. You must have 100% access to the tail rotor for Recurring AD's and to intall the flap restraint. MAKE SURE YOU GET THE DUAL HYDRAULIC MACHINE!!!!

 

Bell 407- Is very sensitive to moisture in cannon plugs. Most of the parts make overhaul times and Bell is very good at getting parts out ASAP. Stay away from the Apical float system because the cables have major corrosion issues and I have seen the aluminum handle on the pilot cyclic break and not deploy the floats because of internal corrosion.

 

My choice would be a 206L4 with electric 6 pack floats beacuse it's THE most reliable and easy to maintain.

[aclark79]

Stay away from the Apical float system because the cables have major corrosion issues and I have seen the aluminum handle on the pilot cyclic break and not deploy the floats because of internal corrosion.

 

Thats bad to hear since I'm currently flying an Apical equipped machine. Not that I've ever seen any corrosion or heard of any of the other ships having their cables or other float parts replaced.

[Expedition yacht Panama]

Everybody,

 

Thanks again for all your comments.

 

In the meantime, we figured out an elegant way to create more clearance AND have easy pre-fight inspections.

 

Attached some images.

 

We now have at least 12 ft. rotor tip clearance, assuming the helicopter is landed in the most forward part of the 1/2 D circle; a few feet more if he put's it down on the H.

 

And to answer an earlier question, yes, all the handrails can be lowered/removed.

 

Thorwald

www.expeditionyacht.org

Extractable_helideck_drawing_A4.pdf

[rick1128]

A couple of things I would be concerned able would be density altitude and tail rotor authority. I know we are talking about sea level. However in the Caribbean the land can and does get quite high close to the shore line. And I have seen density altitudes in excess of 2000 feet at sea level. Even though the approach path to the pad appears to be straight over the stern, does mean that is where the mean wind will be coming from that direction. Too many boat captains figure it's your problem to get on the deck safely.

 

Keep in mind that getting spares out of Eurocopter is an adventure in itself.

[Inferno]

For the most part, panama is low level. There are some mountains, but they are centered in the country, and the coast is almost completely lowlands.

A couple of things I would be concerned able would be density altitude and tail rotor authority. I know we are talking about sea level. However in the Caribbean the land can and does get quite high close to the shore line. And I have seen density altitudes in excess of 2000 feet at sea level. Even though the approach path to the pad appears to be straight over the stern, does mean that is where the mean wind will be coming from that direction. Too many boat captains figure it's your problem to get on the deck safely.

 

Keep in mind that getting spares out of Eurocopter is an adventure in itself.

[Reliefmech]

Thats bad to hear since I'm currently flying an Apical equipped machine. Not that I've ever seen any corrosion or heard of any of the other ships having their cables or other float parts replaced.

 

I have had two break in my hand, replaced many many cables that were barely moveable. Apical has made changes to the cable design. We have made a 150 HR lube for all cables, pivots, ect in the mixing box mandatory. It's a very expensive system to maintain. The electrical in my opinion is 100% cheaper and more reliable.

[Reliefmech]

Everybody,

 

Thanks again for all your comments.

 

In the meantime, we figured out an elegant way to create more clearance AND have easy pre-fight inspections.

 

Attached some images.

 

We now have at least 12 ft. rotor tip clearance, assuming the helicopter is landed in the most forward part of the 1/2 D circle; a few feet more if he put's it down on the H.

 

And to answer an earlier question, yes, all the handrails can be lowered/removed.

 

Thorwald

www.expeditionyacht.org

 

That is an very good looking setup. Remember if you ever need a mechanic for a week or weekend I'd be glad to join you for a sailing free of charge