ideal heli for expedition yacht - AS 350 vs. 407

[Goldy]

Nice boat- the drawings show it designed for an EC 135, but the photos show an A/W. Personally, on a boat, I would prefer the skids of a 135 than the wheels on a A/W.

[Expedition yacht Panama]

Actually, the drawings (with the 1/2D and D circles) now show a EC130B but pictures are taken at another yacht. We'll certainly go for skits. Landing with wheels on a beach won't work to well.

 

Thorwald

[Wally]

"ReliefMech" raises some good points regarding maintenance issues. Can't comment on them, as I'm only a pilot. Been in the AS350/355 for more than half my 41 years, no 407 flight time, so can't address that at all.

I like the B2 a lot, easy to fly, roomy, comfortable, reliable, pretty much no issues up to a PA of 4000' and 25-30 deg C, whatever that DA works out to. A much better passenger experience than any variation of the 206. The 407 is a development of the 206, and the cabin seems to be pretty much the L4, at least when I've looked at the competitions' ships.

The B2 will do what you want without issues, as I'd guess will the 407. I'd base my decision on who's maintaining the aircraft, their experience and recommendation. All helicopters are the mechanic's first, and the pilot's second.

One issue you must consider in your planning for an Astar is that the blades MUST be secure in winds of 40+ knots- and secure isn't just socks and tie down lines. The blades have to be immobilized against excess flapping movement, or you have issues, blades AND Starflex.

I like what I've seen and heard of the 130, but I don't think it's fully developed yet.

 

You might also post some of your questions on http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads, lots of experience posted there- international, engineers, pilots.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Wally

[roamer]

The 407 gets my vote for passenger view. You may have two facing backwards, but they have a window seat.

[Gomer Pylot]

I failed to see this thread the first time around, but just a couple of quick thoughts:

 

Wheels are about 1000% better than skids on a ship. I've landed both types on all sorts of ships and seismic boats and offshore helidecks, and I'll take wheels every time. The wheels provide far more friction than skids, because you only have a few very small points in contact with the deck at any time, and metal on metal can be very slick. I've had skids just slide all over the place on steel decks, but wheels don't move. Plus, a tripod (three wheels) is a very stable configuration, and you never know what you're going to get with skids. Skids have one, and only one, advantage in any situation. Well, two. They're cheap and light. They have no other redeeming qualities at all.

 

Second, corrosion will be a factor. The AS350 is mostly composite, which doesn't corrode. But I've seen extreme corrosion in the wiring and the few metal parts on them, and in fact I saw a sealed relay corrode and fail after one went through a hurricane offshore. That one just started coming apart, and had to be almost completely rewired. 407s will also corrode badly. The best way to prevent it that I know of is to buy gallons of Corrosion-X and liberally spray the inside of the tailboom and everything you can reach with it. It will smell like hay for awhile, but it's effective. Without it, you'll have to replace lots of stuff pretty quickly.

Edited March 26, 2010 by Gomer Pylot

[ascj]

Thorwald have you got a machine yet, just wondering which way and why..

[Zippy]

Afternoon Thorwald,

 

I have a few cents for you.

 

I have flown EC120, BA, B2, SD2, B3, and EC130 in the Mountains, Very High DA's in both utility, and corporate/touring type work. In addition, I have also worked on a large yacht on an EC145.

 

if it was my yacht program...

 

EC120 - Great passenger machine, but there will rarely be 4 of them! Going to be tough to operate at a AVERAGE DA's with any kind of fuel or full pax load. Your helideck would have very little left for reserve margins on an average day. Not the machine for program you describe.

 

BA - Very accepatable to your program. An experienced pilot will have no issue with performance for anything you want to do with full pax and half fuel. (have flown them to 8000' DA regularly) A not so experienced pilot may have a harder time on the hot heavy days.

 

B2 - Best choice in my opinoin. Sliders doors (rare on a 407) on a yacht are a very good idea. The price right now is VERY good. Lots of power. If you look at the BA and the B2 with the same Pax load (remember the BA is doable) the B2 just added a tonnne of extra power, which give give you way more power reserve, safety margin what ever you want to call it. Now you can start adding more fuel until you reach your Max gross. Again...Flown right, there is absoluelty no reasno this machine should be close to limits with passengers only on board. This isn't by charts, but fly them ever day.

 

B3 - Total overkill for people moving. Same internal gross (unless dual hydraulic) as BA/B2 and 100 horsepower you will never use, but are paying for. Fuel burn is 200 liters per hour vs. a B2 that is 170-180 liters per hour. I have flown 4 different B3's and there flow meters get to 190 when in economical cruise and you are light. 200 is the usual number. That adds up , when pulling fuel off the yacht. Fadec (computer controlled) machine still a little new, and have had some issues. You must remeber maintenace. B2 are everywhere and are VERY simple. Field support may be easier on a B2.

Dual Hydraulic allows for an additional 200 pound of fuel (100%) and Full pax. Cost $150 k. Your call.

 

Ec130 - Good machine. Same power/fadec system as the B3. Already has Dual hydraulics. Problem is C of G with 3 pax seats in the front and light fuel. You have minimum fuel restrictions. Thus you run 2 Pax seats in front, which is 1 more seat than a B2 for an extra million dollars. Other than that, a great yacht machine, with enlarged squirrel checks and a cargo basket...Awsome!!

 

Having done this exact job!! (but in a EC145). Being the utility/adventure/corporate "bush" flying you want to do I would go B2, on high skid gear with a basket, hook for slinging the Picnic gear/mountain bikes/atv's. Yes tires might be better on the ship deck, but you will be seriously limited to off boat landings.

 

"Currently" Pilots are capable of performing all Ad's within the 100 hour inspection schedule. That is a lot of flying. In past experience, young machines that have had an easy life have been very maintenance free.

 

I have little time around 407's but configured right could be an ok machine, however, they are also Fadec machines which in Central America, I may be cautios about.

 

Send me a pm and we can chat further. I have many more opinions (and yes they are only opinions) I'm also interested...if you haven't already employed a pilot.

 

Zippy