SFAR 73 Clarification?

[svtcobra66]

Ok, I'm thoroughly unfamiliar with Robinsons. I thought I had previously read you cannot act as pic of an R22 or R44 unless you had 5 dual, then you could log pic, but you needed 50 hours in R22 (25r22 and 25r44 for the R44) to fly commercially. Now I'm reading you can't act as PIC unless you have 50 hours Robinson time with 25 being in the R44 for the R44, to include 10 hours of dual. Does the robinson safety course waive this or something? Does anyone buying an R22 or R44 need to have 50 hours to be pic? It also says you can solo in one with 20 dual, which doesn't seem to jive with the rest of it, which means I'm reading it wrong. I need some clarification, I have over 800 hours in helis but 0 Robinson time and I'm starting to feel left behind and need to build some up

 

What do I have to do to be able to fly them a) non-commercially and commercially?

 

Thanks

Edited July 26, 2009 by svtcobra66

[azbirdman]

It has been renewed, as usual. See E-CFR online.

[coptermedic]

It was extented indefinitely

[svtcobra66]

bump since i changed the topic/content of my question...

[cellocopter]

I'll see if I can simplify it for you.....

 

If you already have a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating:

 

Before you can manipulate the controls you need an endorsement that shows you had the awareness training.

 

Then you go get 10 hours dual in an R22 including training in the items listed.

 

Now you can get an endorsement to act as PIC of an R22 which is good for one year.

This endorsement must be renewed annually until you've logged 50 hours in the R22 and have at least 200 hours in helicopters.

 

For the R44 it's the same, except that you can count 5 hours of R22 time toward the 10 dual needed for the R44 PIC endorsement. And, you can can count 25 hours of R22 time toward the 50 hours needed (assuming at least 200 total in helicopters) to waive the PIC endorsement requirement.

 

If you reread this part you'll probably see you missed an "or" in there between (i) and (ii), which is probably why you're confused.

 

 

The 20 hour dual requirement is only for student pilots before they can go solo.

 

 

hope this helps

Edited July 27, 2009 by cellocopter

[svtcobra66]

Ok, then to fly commercially I would only need the 10 hours and renew the training each year, until I get to 50 hours? If so that's actually much better than I thought, for some reason I was under the impression I needed 50 to do anything commercially in the Robbies.

[clay]

the 50 is or instructing . thats what i had to get.

Edited July 27, 2009 by clay

[cellocopter]

You've got it right. SFAR 73 states special requirements for manipulating the controls, soloing, acting as PIC, instructing (50 hours with additional endorsement and 200 total helo), flight reviews, and passenger currency. But it says absolutely nothing about commercial operations.

Edited July 27, 2009 by cellocopter

[spil]

What does a "rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating" exactly means?

 

Am I correct, that if I already flying the Schweizer 300, I need the 10 hrs dual in an R22 including training in the items listed?

Actually I have a PPLH with 60 hrs in a Schweizer.

 

I´m also a little bit confused by the 20 hrs dual req.

 

Some explanations would help!

 

Thanks

Edited July 28, 2009 by spil

[gizmo]

Cellocopter is right on with his explanation of the SFAR.

Before you look at the SFAR and try to understand it (yes it can be very confusing) we need to know if your already a rated helicopter pilot and what your training was in? Meaning did you train in the Bell 47, R22, Schweizer, etc?

1) If your already a rated pilot with no R22 time, then you need 10 hours dual before you can fly it solo

2) If your not a rated pilot, meaning you're still a student, then you need 20 hours dual in the R22 before you can start soloing it (remember you need 10 hours required solo time for your PPL)

 

Now for the 50 hr/ 200 total rotorcraft time part. You need to to exceed both numbers in order to teach in the R22. As far as I know there are no minimums to meet to fly commercially in the R22 but your insurance company may impose some minimum numbers to meet. Also, after you're a rated pilot the FAA requires that you fly once every 2 years. Its called a BFR and a 1 hour flight (must be in a R22 with instructor) and 1 hour groundschool session is required.

If you're under either one of those numbers (50 hr/200 total hr), then the SFAR kicks in and you need to fly once a year in a R22. After you exceed both numbers then only the BFR is required every 2 years

Hope this helps...

[svtcobra66]

That does help, its actually good news as I was thinking I needed 50 hours to be able to do tours in a R44, but if its only 10 I may actually be able to afford getting those hours. I'll worry about teaching later...

[rjl2001]

I have another question to add to this thread. For all the different hour requirements in the SFAR, does that include any loggable simulator time? For example, if I'm training through to CFI in R22 (with some R44), but get less than 25 hours in the R44, will my logged hours in the Fly-It simulator count for the additional hours to meet the instructor requirements?

 

Hope that question wasn't too confusing, thanks.

[Falko]

I have another question to add to this thread. For all the different hour requirements in the SFAR, does that include any loggable simulator time? For example, if I'm training through to CFI in R22 (with some R44), but get less than 25 hours in the R44, will my logged hours in the Fly-It simulator count for the additional hours to meet the instructor requirements?

 

Hope that question wasn't too confusing, thanks.

 

I don't have the FARAIM next to me but as far as i remember:

 

SFAR 73 talks about the flight time in the AIRCRAFT "R22/ R44"

The simulator is not mentioned under SFAR73 --> no sim time usable for R22/R44 requirements.

 

If you do your training part 141, and your school 141 syllabus includes sim time as part of your PVT or COM training, then you can count your sim flight time towards your total flight time in your log book. You can log up to 5 hrs of sim time " maybe more..but 5 hrs is common at 141 schools"

 

IFR is up to 20hrs in the sim but that does not count as flight time (TT in RCH)

 

Falko

[glennahall]

Here's a link to SFAR 73 (if I do this right...)

 

SFAR 73<<<---Click Here

 

I just went through it again and I didn't see any provisions for simulator time specified. In fact, I think that there would have to be a ruling on whether the non-Robinson specific time in this SFAR could be done in a simulator. For example, a CFI has to have "had at least 200 flight hours in helicopters...(goes on to detail Robinson specific time)." Let's say that a CFI has all the Robinson time the SFAR requires but has only 180 actual in aircraft flight hours and scads of simulator time. I don't know if the term "flight hours" can be "hard defined" (my term) as "in the air in a real helicopter hours". Based on what I see elsewhere in the FARs, I think that simulator time could be used for part of that 200 hours in a helicopter.

 

Spil asked, "What does a "rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating" exactly means?"

 

Well, here's my short version. (I don't mean any of this to be insulting to anyone's intelligence so read it as if I'm just a laid back guy who talks funny... cause I'm kinda that way):

 

Machines that take humans into the air (aircraft) are broken in to groups of similar machines - Categories. These groups are broken up further into "sub-groups" of even more similar machines - Classes. In order to legally operate these contraptions, we are required to be certified in them. We get a Pilot Certificate (occasionally referred to as a license). Because the groups and sub-groups of aircraft tend to work differently from one another, we have to be certificated in each individual group and sub-group (Category and Class) in which we want to operate.

 

Here are some examples:

 

Category: Rotorcraft

Classes: Helicopter, Gyroplane

 

Category: Airplane

Classes: Single-Engine Land, Multi-Engine Land, Single-Engine Sea, Multi-Engine Sea

 

An example, Spil has what he referred to as a PPLH. His Pilot Certification is Private Pilot Rotorcraft - Helicopter. That is to say, he is certified to the private level of flying privileges in the Rotorcraft Category and Helicopter Class.

 

Make sense?

 

Here's a link to the FAR about this:

FAR list of Certifications, Categories and Classes<<<---Click Here

 

Spil also asked, "Am I correct, that if I already flying the Schweizer 300, I need the 10 hrs dual in an R22 including training in the items listed?"

 

Shorter answer than my last one... Yes.

 

Best regards,

G

Edited September 23, 2009 by glennahall