HelliBoy Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Link to video They should do this kind of thing more often...it really brings a great perspective to the situation and allows us to learn from other people's mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 That was pretty good. I can tell you why you don't see it as often as we should: LAWYERS. You won't hear anything from your company either. Everyone except the pilots pretend it never happens. What should be critiqued in your daily safety briefing, never does. I understand not second guessing someone, but let's be real. We grow old by learning from the mistakes of others so we can avoid making the same mistake. When I was a cop, we critiqued every police shooting to DEATH. Why? So we could maybe avoid a funeral someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arotrhd Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I caught this seperately a little earlier from another news-feed. This is going to be the new standard for case studies, and like simulators, will migrate downwards to a lot more "common" accidents when FDM info is extracted. Although this is still a "representation", KSS did a fantastic job. There was a similar CG animation used for a lawsuit a few years back after LAFD's 205/Fire 2 went down over Griffith...the "improvements" evident for this one are stunning in comparison. Hopefully, this will bring out more 'heart to heart' conversations between operators/management and pilots/flight crews as BFG voiced above. Still spooky to watch and listen, and again, realize the magnitude of errors resulting in 4 gentlemen not going home. Anyone say SITUATIONAL AWARENESS? This is going to be a long string... -WATCH FOR THE WIRES- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOATFIXERGUY Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I caught this seperately a little earlier from another news-feed. This is going to be the new standard for case studies, and like simulators, will migrate downwards to a lot more "common" accidents when FDM info is extracted. Although this is still a "reprentation", KSS did a fantastic job. There was a similar CG animation used for a lawsuit after LAFD's 205/Fire 2 went down over Griffith...the "improvements" evident for this are stunning in comparison. Hopefully, this will bring out more 'heart to heart' conversations between operators/management and pilots/flight crews as BFG voiced above. Still spooky to watch and listen, and again, realize the magnitude of errors resulting in 4 gentlemen not going home. Anyone say SITUATIONAL AWARENESS? This is going to be a long string... -WATCH FOR THE WIRES- I hope this thread does get going. We all make mistakes every single day. Talking about them is the best way to hopefully avoid them. Aviation is the only group I know of that doesn't critique incidents or accidents....why? The FAA and NTSB does, but we as a group do not. Maybe it has something to do with our own mortality. If so, then why does the Military and Law Enforcement critique? Are those professions any less dangerous? I think not. What I do, especially around the newer pilots, is when we're all sitting around waiting on weather, I get a conversation going by saying something that I did wrong or screwed up. I learn, they learn, and hopefully someone picks up on it and we all see each other at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HelliBoy Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 The whole not critiquing accidents issue is no one's fault but our own. However, how many of us regularly check the accident reports, discuss issues on forums such as this, and talk to our fellow pilots about safety issues. It may not be formal but the same result is acheived. We as pilots are responsible for these accidents most of the time and management are usually not pilots and dont understand these issues...they think implementing a SMS is all they can do, and thats fine in my book. Do we really need our bosses to require us to have a meeting on every incident or accident?? I dont think so. Its up to us to learn from others mistakes, not for them(managers) to teach us. To change the subject slightly... Heres an interesting article ARTICLE these are the scumbags that make aviation (and everything else) so expensive. ..."only pilots with at least 1,000 hours should be allowed to fly nonfamily members" What a fool. $350 million for an engine failure????? That is insane!!!! Should I feel like I hit the lottery if my engine quits now??? An accident is acutally cheaper if everybody on board is killed outright. Tort reform is the only answer to this kind of garbage. Our insurance rates will continue to climb until the lawyer class is leashed. I could buy a new aircraft every 6 years if I didnt have to pay hull insurance. Thats like paying $3,500 a year for a $20,000 car. A freind fairly high up in Bell explained to me that manufacturer liability is as much as 25% of the cost of a new aircraft. We need to get rid of all these lawyers destroying our economy. It would solve so many of the problems in our society as well....healthcare being number 1. I wish there was an emoticon for blood shooting out of my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arotrhd Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 AMEN! -WATCH FOR THE WIRES- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmsemel Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Looks like they were to busy talking and looking on the ground and not for other traffic. Well it happens, the regs are written in such a way that the Pilot is going to get the blame no matter what. It a tough thing to live with, an aircraft gets in your blind spot, you are on the radio, and looking at something you are talking about and poof, you die. Nobody ever said that flying didn't have risks, it dose. In this case it was a story for the news cycle, a nothing story , the story became themselves. Heck of a thing. They did one of these for TWA 800 and they called it a cover up, so maybe that is why to don't see more of this sort of thing. Its a good lesson and as they say a photo is worth a 1000 words. Edited July 30, 2009 by gmsemel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pogue Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Bear in mind the video was prepared for the lawyer who filed the lawsuit against the company that operated one of the helicopters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arotrhd Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Pogue- That's exactly my concern as well (intended/unintended bias introduced)...“representation” will be taken as fact in the courthouse and on the street. Still valuable as an aid as long as it's understood that it is a representation based on available factual evidence. -WATCH FOR THE WIRES- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Pogue- That's exactly my concern as well (intended/unintended bias introduced)...“representation” will be taken as fact in the courthouse and on the street. Still valuable as an aid as long as it's understood that it is a representation based on available factual evidence. -WATCH FOR THE WIRES- The reconstruction didnt look to me like the other ship was in a blind spot. Basically shows the ship coming right at the other one at the same altitude. I figured one ship was above another and slightly aft, thats a blind spot. A few feet of altitude loss and the main rotor from the ship on top takes off the tail of the other. That makes a lil more sense to me. I guess we'll never really know. One thing looks certain, and that is the one pilot never saw it coming. Rest in peace to all involved. I also read the NTSB reports constantly, wish they were a bit more detailed. Goldy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashed_05 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 I first saw these videos about a year ago. Its definitly an eye opener. It shows just how quick, easy and unexpected an accident can occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin DBC Posted August 6, 2009 Report Share Posted August 6, 2009 When I hear that people aren't critiqing accidents, it kinda gets to me. As a requirement, we go over at least 7 or 8 full accident investigations a year complete with whatever they can provide us (cockpit recorders, video, or recreation). On top of that, anytime someone hears about a crash, it always comes up during flight planning. It's a fairly informal thing and some people have different "facts" than others, but at least it starts up a conversation about the things that can go wrong, ways to fix/prevent them, and helps cut back on complacency. You don't need to hold a formal meeting to critique these accidents (though that should be done from time to time as well). Bring it up and throw a theory on the table. I guarantee you someone is going to bite. J- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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