Helicopter and Plane collision

[JDHelicopterPilot]

I fly with many including Garmin G1000 and 530-430, lots of traffic does show up in congested areas but in no way is it distracting! only when the target turns yellow is it of major importance,let alone I flew a average of 40 IFR hours in the last 6 months many times getting atc traffic calls the units help almost instantly point out the location. Now I agree 100% u need a display like a 496 or AV8OR to give you a easy way of interposing the info from a Zoan XRX unit. I checked with ATC records and didn't find the piper on any clearance he is at fault 100% if he was descending due to a engine issue the lower aircraft on a same heading has the right away (but you will not use this to take advantage of other aircraft) if my rote is correct. I think the climbing left turn makes more sense due to the wing getting ripped off....

 

 

If he had an engine failure that would qualify as an aircraft emergency and distress. In which case the airplane would have had the right of way.

 

EDIT: Sorry, didn't realize Angelfire beat me to the right of way issue. Angel, you are right about the ADS-B in that it is not a true TCAS. A true TCAS costs a lot more than $2000 for the XRX. The XRX is a good tool to assist a pilot and if you add that to the Garmin it will give you a picture of who is around you with some exceptions.

 

JETTSET, most of us have been flyinf a while now and do understand mid air accidents. I for one would love a TCAS but would settle for a ADS-B type device and do think they should be required. I for one can't afford my own unit. I am a helicopter pilot after all. Perhaps some day I can but not right now. This is the delima many of us face.

 

Companies will way the cost vs benifit of spending the money for such units for their fleet. Mid air accidents are pretty rare so many companies don't want to spend that kind money on traffic equipment.

 

JD

Edited August 11, 2009 by JDHelicopterPilot

[Goldy]

If he had an engine failure that would qualify as an aircraft emergency and distress. In which case the airplane would have had the right of way.

 

True JD, but its tough to see and avoid when the aircraft is descending on top and behind you.

 

I've said it for years. It may not have helped in this situation, but uncontrolled space needs to have a few rules added to help minimize the number of mid airs.

 

1. Airplanes fly no lower than 1000 AGL..period. When flying above 1000AGL you talk to each other on 122.75- its mandatory that you have a radio, and that you make position reports.

 

2. Helicopters fly no higher than 1000 AGL unless under ATC control. It's mandatory that you have a radio and that you make position reports on .02.

 

3. All aircraft flying will have a functioning transponder and will have it on !

 

Sorry, I like freedoms, but the current Class G rules, which do not even require that you have a radio. let alone a transponder are ridiculous in congested areas. My last near miss would be better classified as a "near hit". Airplanes just really dont belong at 300AGL and less.

 

Couple months ago I was flying along Malibu making position reports on .02. Up pops a F/W who says he is at the same location as I. I was flying at 300 AGL, he passed under me at 100 over the water. Not fun.

 

 

Goldy

[JETTSET99]

Theirs no way this heli flew into a piper saratoga! dont rely on joe smo read the info given from pilots they know from years of looking at airplanes what was doing what!!!! as for the traffic equip yes the plane or chopper need a transponder but last time I checked thiers a thing called a mode c vail usally around busy airports and last test I took thier was 2 things u need to fly over class charlie and yes you will have 95%+ aircraft with them reporting on your display all you need is a garmin 396 or like I have a AV8OR that gets the info via bluetooth from the XRX I like this better than the TIS because TIS is only in terminal coverage areas and the XRX is everywhere!! Yes theirs a possibility the heli pilot was at fault but Ill put my money the pro was not at fault....plus he trained at KLGB

[palmfish]

Rick1128 make some excellent points above.

 

In extremely crowded airspace, TCAS can be alerting constantly. I often turn TCAS off when I'm in the pattern of a Class B or C airport simply because it's too distracting to listen to the constant gong and voice alerts.

 

And as I previously mentioned, TCAS also cries wolf periodically (ghost alerts and blips that aren't actually there), doesn't alert until after an aircraft passes by, and gives inaccurate/late directional/altitude information.

 

TCAS can increase a pilot's situation awareness, but only if the pilot knows its limitations and works with/around them. It can mitigate risk - not prevent collisions.

[jehh]

It is worth saying...

 

TCAS and TCAD are two different beasts... Almost all the units we might use in light aircraft are TCAD. These are cheap and simple, but have their limits.

 

TCAS is an expensive system that is very accurate and very expensive. It is generally only found in larger jets and airliners. You don't need TCAS until you have 10 or more seats.

 

TCAD units start at $10K. TCAS units can be 10 times that price.

 

Whenever you complain that the traffic unit in your aircraft is not working as well as you'd like, consider the above...

[palmfish]

It is worth saying...

 

TCAS and TCAD are two different beasts... Almost all the units we might use in light aircraft are TCAD. These are cheap and simple, but have their limits.

 

TCAS is an expensive system that is very accurate and very expensive. It is generally only found in larger jets and airliners. You don't need TCAS until you have 10 or more seats.

 

TCAD units start at $10K. TCAS units can be 10 times that price.

 

Whenever you complain that the traffic unit in your aircraft is not working as well as you'd like, consider the above...

 

Good point.

 

Of course, nobody in this discussion is likely talking about active systems like TCAS I or II. The term TCAS is routinely used as a generic term to refer to all collision avoidance systems (devices).

[JETTSET99]

I have seen the ghost target, I'm told its generated by the sun and your picking up yourself it happens once in a great moon you can tell its a ghost target by no directional info just a target always to the non sun side of aircraft,these units are outstanding some of the best technology next to gps you can fly with,I guess Im partial to these units due to the fact their have been several mid airs in the area I fly in ,and I fly allot in very busy airspace.

[AngelFire_91]

Good point.

 

Of course, nobody in this discussion is likely talking about active systems like TCAS I or II. The term TCAS is routinely used as a generic term to refer to all collision avoidance systems (devices).

 

Exactly my point, TCAS is active, everyone's TCAS system "talks" to everyone else that has one. ADS is passive and limited to the number of "users" in the system. It's a great thing to have, but it still doesn't replace situational awareness and our brains!

[helonorth]

One of the problems with TCAS in steam gauge airplanes is that unless you have a MFD, the TCAS will only give you a traffic warning and a climb or descend command. It doesn't tell you where or at what altitude the traffic is. Also consider that the helicopter was hit from behind, a blind spot for the helicopter, and from above, which due to the long nose of the Saratoga, is a blind spot for the airplane. There was no communications between to two aircraft and the system in the Exclusion areas depends on all parties communicating in a timely, honest and clear manner.

Not true. My TCAS give me distance, altitude and direction. On the 420, it is a small screen inset on whatever nav page you are using. When the traffic gets closer than two miles, it takes up the whole screen and starts talking. It seems as though you're the one with little understanding of TCAS. At least the ones I've used. Communication is important. Nobody said otherwise. But if someone isn't talking or you don't hear it, look what can happen. TCAS

is a wonderful tool that once you have it, you don't like flying without it.

Edited August 11, 2009 by helonorth

[deerock]

yeah Goldy. I've talked to quite a few F/W pilots who say they never make a position report, even when they are below 1k. I've seen quite a few f/w's fly underneath me, or barely above me as well. I'll see the shadow of their plane on the beach or something similar and then I'll know they are there above me. Can be quite scary.

 

Talked to a CFI out of KLGB and he knew the heli pilot real well and taught alongside him. Said he was a good and safe pilot.

[helonorth]

Rick1128 make some excellent points above.

 

In extremely crowded airspace, TCAS can be alerting constantly. I often turn TCAS off when I'm in the pattern of a Class B or C airport simply because it's too distracting to listen to the constant gong and voice alerts.

 

And as I previously mentioned, TCAS also cries wolf periodically (ghost alerts and blips that aren't actually there), doesn't alert until after an aircraft passes by, and gives inaccurate/late directional/altitude information.

 

TCAS can increase a pilot's situation awareness, but only if the pilot knows its limitations and works with/around them. It can mitigate risk - not prevent collisions.

TCAS could be a distraction in C or B airspace, but you also have separation from ATC. To say

that TCAS won't prevent collisions is a ridiculous statement.

[rick1128]

TCAS could be a distraction in C or B airspace, but you also have separation from ATC. To say

that TCAS won't prevent collisions is a ridiculous statement.

 

TCAS DOES NOT PREVENT collisions. It gives you the information necessary to allow you to avoid collisions. The unit DOES NOT take control of the aircraft. The airspace in these exclusions are narrow with a lot a traffic at times. It is not Class B or C, it is Class G.

 

 

Not true. My TCAS give me distance, altitude and direction. On the 420, it is a small screen inset on whatever nav page you are using. When the traffic gets closer than two miles, it takes up the whole screen and starts talking. It seems as though you're the one with little understanding of TCAS. At least the ones I've used. Communication is important. Nobody said otherwise. But if someone isn't talking or you don't hear it, look what can happen. TCAS is a wonderful tool that once you have it, you don't like flying without it.

 

The 420 is basically a MFD. Not all aircraft have them. I have used TCAS before and it is a great tool. But not having a visual representation of where the traffic is makes it less useful. Plus on a couple of occasions, I have had TCAS units order me to dive when I was working low level.

 

And if the Piper did have an emergency, logic dictates that the helicopter had to know that and see the traffic to be able to give it the right of way.

Edited August 11, 2009 by rick1128

[helonorth]

Of course TCAS prevents collisions. You do have to do stuff like turn it on and react to it. Do I really need to say that? You were also misinforming about the capabilities of TCAS.

[JETTSET99]

Not true. My TCAS give me distance, altitude and direction. On the 420, it is a small screen inset on whatever nav page you are using. When the traffic gets closer than two miles, it takes up the whole screen and starts talking. It seems as though you're the one with little understanding of TCAS. At least the ones I've used. Communication is important. Nobody said otherwise. But if someone isn't talking or you don't hear it, look what can happen. TCAS

is a wonderful tool that once you have it, you don't like flying without it.

 

 

AMEN a fellow pilot with brains

[Chewie]

AMEN a fellow pilot with brains

 

Ya know I'm gonna call you out on this one. To hint that any pilot who doesn't fly with some kind of traffic avoidance system has no brains is a ridiculous statement. It sounds like you have it pretty good with what you fly and for whom. Every pilot I know would love to have some kind of active/passive system in every ship they fly, I know I would. But the prices make them luxuries that are difficult to afford. In this economy pilots in the early stages of a career/CFIs, not to mention flight schools and commercial operators are having to draw the belt tighter.

All I have see you do throughout this thread is crow about TCAS this and AV8OR that, and I have I have I have etc...

Obviously yes I am a little jealous that you (apparently) have an operator who understands safety vs. the bottom line and digs a little deeper. But mostly that doesn't seem to be the case in the rest of the world.

I would say instead of alluding to what you did in your post, the pilot with no brains would be the one who has access to one of those systems in flight but decides not to use it.

 

 

Theirs no way this heli flew into a piper saratoga! dont rely on joe smo read the info given from pilots they know from years of looking at airplanes what was doing what!!!! as for the traffic equip yes the plane or chopper need a transponder but last time I checked thiers a thing called a mode c vail usally around busy airports and last test I took thier was 2 things u need to fly over class charlie and yes you will have 95%+ aircraft with them reporting on your display all you need is a garmin 396 or like I have a AV8OR that gets the info via bluetooth from the XRX I like this better than the TIS because TIS is only in terminal coverage areas and the XRX is everywhere!! Yes theirs a possibility the heli pilot was at fault but Ill put my money the pro was not at fault....plus he trained at KLGB

On another note I would suggest that before again saying something like "I guess none of you understand" or alluding to us all as brainless pilots I would try to get the basics down, like spelling and grammar. It's a Mode C Veil not "vail", and There's not "Theirs" (shows possession). Makes it much easier for others to "understand" your point and take it seriously.

Honestly not trying to flame or be too disagreeable, I just have kind of an obsession!

[palmfish]

AMEN a fellow pilot with brains

 

I use a Ryan 9900 with a Garmin 400. Yes, the info it provides is helpful, but again, not the whole picture. If I get an alert and visual traffic indication, the actual position of the aircraft is usually different than the position as represented on the GPS display.

 

Due to delay of the transponder signal/frequency of interrogation, speed/direction of both aircraft, etc., the pilot has to understand that the TCAD is an advisory only. It's a great tool, but it has its flaws/limitations.

[Mikemv]

I have been fortunate enought to use TCAD since 1996 in my B407 and an Avidyne 610 in my EC120 since 2007. I did get to spec out both aircraft as I buy them green and decide on the completion equipment. TCAD is a useful tool, can be adjusted for differennt size envelopes of protection and portrayed in many different ways.

 

However, for them to be accurate, all aircraft must be using the same altimeter setting! Visual vigilance and sound operating standards and practices should always be used no matter what aircraft we fly or what certificates we hold. I have worked in and thru the NYC corridor, and it is busy.

 

Please fly safely and with vigilance for traffic. Best to all, Mikemv

[rick1128]

Of course TCAS prevents collisions. You do have to do stuff like turn it on and react to it. Do I really need to say that? You were also misinforming about the capabilities of TCAS.

 

You discount my point and then go and prove it. The TCAS doesn't do anything EXCEPT to inform the pilot of conflicting traffic. The pilot MUST react and react properly to the information. TCAS does not in and of itself prevent collisions, it assists the pilot in avoiding collisions.

 

I have used TCAS with and without MFD's With MFD's it is a helpful system giving the pilot good information. But in some types of busy airspace, it can become more of an annoyance.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

True JD, but its tough to see and avoid when the aircraft is descending on top and behind you.

 

 

Goldy

 

 

I can fully understand that as I've had my fair share. I just wanted to clairfy the right of way rules. Hope all is well in your neck of the woods Goldy.

 

 

JD

[jehh]

With the power of computers today, it is a shame that we don't have TCAS II in all our aircraft.

 

For those who don't know, what TCAS II adds is RA, or resolution advisories. In other words, rather than guessing at what to do, it tells you, "turn left and climb", etc...

 

It is really wonderful in turbojet airplanes. I've used it and it is really needed, because at the speed you're flying, the Mark I eyeball isn't all that useful. The most dramatic event was a pair of F/A-18s that crossed in front of us out west. We were talking to ATC (of course, we were at FL310) and they told us about them, but the time they took to fly from the right to the left side of our windshield was amazingly small. Watching them fly, even a few miles away, was really amazing...

[JETTSET99]

Well I just watched the crash video This crash would defiantly be avoided with onboard traffic seems the plane was in the choppers blind spot and vise versa so I call it a draw on who's at fault just the exact reason to never fly without some sort of traffic warning system its a shame for a few bucks 9 people are dead may they RIP and I hope this type of crash never ever happens again....

[choppedair]

Well I just watched the crash video This crash would defiantly be avoided with onboard traffic seems the plane was in the choppers blind spot and vise versa so I call it a draw on who's at fault just the exact reason to never fly without some sort of traffic warning system its a shame for a few bucks 9 people are dead may they RIP and I hope this type of crash never ever happens again....

 

Except for the fact that the Zaon units are garbage (in my opinion) and constantly pick up your own transponder. I borrowed one for a while and I never knew when to take it seriously. It would often tell me there was an aircraft right on me, +/- 100 feet when there was no one in sight. Other times it would try to point out everyone in the sky. After about 15 times of it beeping and warning me of my own aircraft I turned it off and returned it.

I would love to have a reliable traffic system but I haven't seen anything that I can throw in that is worth it's weight. I like the idea of TIS but it isn't going to do any good flying around in non-radar environment.

[JETTSET99]

Well I disagree you cant just use it as stand alone you need a screen to display the info just like atc! and just like garmin does with the 530/G1000 TIS then you can make sence of the info if you just have the unit sitting thier beeping yes its worthless in the cocpit enviorment id chuck it out the window to but when you have a screen showing the targets now you have some info on whos around you that makes sence.....

Edited August 14, 2009 by JETTSET99

[palmfish]

"This crash would defiantly be avoided with onboard traffic"

 

Not to beat an off-topic horse, but this statement is completely absurd.

 

I was flying the Cessna (equipped with a Ryan 9900B TCAD) just yesterday and had another "oh X$&@" moment...

 

Flying southbound at 140 kts along Interstate 5 between Burlington and Arlington, WA. I was on the right side of the highway at 1350' AGL. Radios quiet, TCAD silent. Suddenly, the TCAD alerts for traffic at the same altitude, 0.1 NM directly in front me. A split second later, I catch a flash of movement out of my left peripheral vision and that was it. The next TCAD alert tells me the traffic is 0.5 NM behind me.

 

The near-misses are very rare (big sky - little plane), but the late/false alerts happen on a daily basis. Traffic avoidance equipment is a great tool to have, but don't depend on it to save your life - because it may not.

[deerock]

CNN has actual video today of the collision:

 

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/...plane.video.cnn