Flight school stability

[kodoz]

Say you were about to take a job at a flight school as a CFI. Before you paid the money to get current, go down for the interview, or to relocate, whatever, what questions would you ask to assess whether the school could be on the brink of shutting it's doors? Would there be any signs or signals that would tip you off?

 

[edit: This wasn't meant to be a rip on any particular school. Since only the owner and a few others have an understanding of a company's financial situation, prospective students and instructors have a disadvantage. Going for a visit/interview and relocating to be at a school that closes down puts an unnecessary expense on those who can least afford it.]

[Inferno]

I would be asking information about the current student number, as well a the number of full time students. Also figure out how many ships they have. If they are too top heavy, they have a higher chance of going under.

 

Other than that, I'm really not sure how you would assess their stability. They sure as hell wouldn;t admit it. And as poorly run as some schools are, they might not have a clue that they are about to capsize.

 

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but Fry said something along the lines that most schools are run by good pilots, but poor business people. In a down economy, the true business potential of a company will show through, and any weaknesses will become readily apparent.

[Goldy]

Keep your eye open for a red 3 day notice to pay rent stapled to the door. Probably not a good sign.

[priologpriolo]

Personally I'd ride it out a little longer until the economy turns.

[priologpriolo]

I'd wait til the economy gets better before going out and trying to instruct

[RkyMtnHI]

I would look at their instructor to students ratio.. I know one school that has 16 instructors and not that many students.. the instructors are having to wait tables just to pay their rent, some of them moved from out of state with promises of grander... only to find out that there are no students. They will be stuck here for a long time trying to get their hours because there are no students and no ships to fly. Most are only getting one or two hours of flight time a week if that!!! If the school has an online schedule watch that for a few weeks to see what is really going on.. trouble is they may post flights that are not happening so you have to go in and watch what's flying as well. Talk with the instructors and the students, spend some time there and ask a ton of questions.. if the operators have a problem with this then something is probably wrong. If you see something that doesn't add up LOOK CLOSER.

 

Ask if they take large sums of $$ from the students.. could be a real bad sign. See if they are giving "great deals" on bulk time and if students are getting different prices for flight time.. i sat at a table once where four guys had all gotten different prices for the same ship.. (try explaining that to them all)!

 

Make sure that all the ships you see on the floor are actually flying.. and if not, why. I know a school that advertises ten helicopters but only have one or two to fly because they don't pay their maintenance bills and/or don't pay the owners of the ships so they are grounded. Up front they look great, and will tell you things are rosy, but the truth is VERY different.

 

Just because you read something on their website doesn't make it true; check accident reports on the NTSB site. I know a school that says they have a zillion hours of accident free flight time.. truth is the have had four or five accidents and you can search that easily if you know how. Ask yourself why they would lie, and if they are lying about this, what else are they trying to cover up.

 

Look at their pricing, you can usually check this on their website too.. if they charge twice as much as everyone else there is probably something wrong..

Look for hidden charges, like scheduling or enrollment fees or solo insurance that isn't. I know of schools that post super high prices because they charge the VA those prices but everyone else half of that.. i keep thinking it can't be true but it is. Remember that YOU will be the one trying to explain all of this stuff when the prospective student asks, or maybe the DA.

 

Look close, because if you do commit to work for a company and find this out later you may be stuck!! i know kids that have spent their life savings (or their parents life savings) moving to another state to work for a company that has no work for them, or that goes out of business without warning and they end up stuck there working at a bar AND NOT FLYING. I get calls once a week from CFIs looking for a job that are in this exact position. LOOK CLOSE!!

 

If i was really serious, and had doubts, i'd ask for the hobbs sheets or records of the helos sitting on the hangar floor. Make sure they are flying on a regular basis. I'd go to other area schools and ask about the one i was looking at. I would also ask how many of their past instructors that have moved on still teach at the school part time... and i would ask for their contact info to get their opinions about their tenure there.

 

Talk with a number of instructors/students, not the first one's that walk up to you.. they may not know what is going on. Ask questions..

 

This is a small industry, and one that is in trouble due to companies like Silver State and others, my post may seem a little over the top, but the truth is it's not... look around.. ask questions, pay attention, now more than ever you have to do due diligence.. you have to protect yourself and the industry.. companies need to be TRANSPARENT, we all need to be part of the solution.. we need to demand more, and we need to do it now.

 

jmho,

 

dp

[heligirl03]

Gosh, I really don't know. I would be really reluctant to move anywhere for a CFI job right now. Flight schools are unstable in a GOOD economy, and now? Even the big schools are taking a hit...Bristow's "waiting list" (which is lame anyway) is down to around 6mo when two years ago it was nearly a 2 year wait!! Hillsboro is doing that ridiculous thing where they fire their 1000hr pilots so prospective students don't get scared away thinking there won't be a CFI job for them when they're done. We see where that's led and I am horrified to see it. Mom and pop shops...usually you can get some fantastic students/training out of these places because the owner or CFIs are often part-time high-timers. But unless they have deep pockets, they are probably waiting tables themselves to keep the lights on these days. Unless the job is somewhere you have nothing to lose by moving to, don't risk it yet.

 

My .02

 

HG03

[COhelipilot]

Maybe we should all spend more time improving our knowledge and our skills as pilots and instructors rather than wasting energy trying to put down other schools. I have avoided taking part in these forums because it used to always be this type of material. It was always somebody with too much time on their hands that wanted to argue about wether a Robinson was better than a 300. Now, since most 300 schools have R44's it seems that there is now the need to focus on the negative, not about the kind of helicopters, but the schools as a whole.

It is not only ridiculous but also very sad that with all the problems in our industry, we have the power to fix, we are spending our energy posting negative things about other training facilities. In this type of economy we should all be working together to help stabilize an improve our trade. All flight schools have their problems and their assets..PERIOD. The ones that claim they don't are flat out lying. Flight schools come and go pretty often. In my local area there is only one that has lasted more than about five years. I know because I have been part of two here, and four total. Most of the time it comes from undercapitalization and or poor management. Regardless I would hope we can all realize that we are in this together. We should be working towards the betterment of the training industry rather than putting it down. I spend at least eight hours a day training students and conducting check rides and I still have to study every night to keep up with all the information about our ever-changing industry. I don't mean to offend any one but I felt I needed to post a reply to ask everyone to focus on what really matters. I would put it to all of us to focus on safety rather than personal feelings about business practices.

[clay]

yet you have the time and energy to type out how we should be spending our time and energy? interesting

[goromadgo]

If what you took from this thread is that people are school bashing maybe you need to go back to lurking instead of posting, a bit more reading may have saved you some ridicule. The topic of this post is the process and vetting of potential schools in which a CFI is looking to gain employment. Do you disagree that it is in the best interest of all pilots to be informed on this subject? I agree the 300 vs R22 topic is tedious and unnecessary, but who made you read it? I think you should have skipped that thread entirely as soon as you saw the title and instead read up more on the Delta-3 hinge (for example) to improve yourself as a pilot. You propose that other pilots look to improve themselves as pilots and help improve the industry, instead of seeking advice on how to avoid a potential bad employer sitchuation that could possibly involve moving/emptying the savings account. I don't know many pilots that don't look to constantly improve themselves, but this cannot be a process that takes place 24/7. I have to take my head of of Wagtendonk's book every now-and-then otherwise my head would implode. But please...do explain how we are to fix the industry. I am curious to know! When it comes to other's careers please save tired "this thread sucks" post and instead post something else just as useless..."FIRST!"

 

 

Maybe we should all spend more time improving our knowledge and our skills as pilots and instructors rather than wasting energy trying to put down other schools. I have avoided taking part in these forums because it used to always be this type of material. It was always somebody with too much time on their hands that wanted to argue about wether a Robinson was better than a 300. Now, since most 300 schools have R44's it seems that there is now the need to focus on the negative, not about the kind of helicopters, but the schools as a whole.

It is not only ridiculous but also very sad that with all the problems in our industry, we have the power to fix, we are spending our energy posting negative things about other training facilities. In this type of economy we should all be working together to help stabilize an improve our trade. All flight schools have their problems and their assets..PERIOD. The ones that claim they don't are flat out lying. Flight schools come and go pretty often. In my local area there is only one that has lasted more than about five years. I know because I have been part of two here, and four total. Most of the time it comes from undercapitalization and or poor management. Regardless I would hope we can all realize that we are in this together. We should be working towards the betterment of the training industry rather than putting it down. I spend at least eight hours a day training students and conducting check rides and I still have to study every night to keep up with all the information about our ever-changing industry. I don't mean to offend any one but I felt I needed to post a reply to ask everyone to focus on what really matters. I would put it to all of us to focus on safety rather than personal feelings about business practices.

[tattooed]

Times ARE tough right now. For those of us NOT on a work visa, we are probably better off working on our skills, doing additional studying (I have been going thru my lesson plans, improving, organizing, refreshing, etc), and just being PATIENT and PERSISTENT.

 

As fas as school stability??? that is anyone's guess. Even the best "appearing" school is like any business and can become a victim of the economy at any minute....which even comes down to factors outside of their control...like their insurance company is sold, new carrier drops the school....etc etc.

 

In my green and unexperienced opinion, if it doesn't break the bank, take a job you are offered (unless, of course, you are not comfortable with the school), and keep building those hours, and not loose your currency and your skills.

 

It's going to take a long time for the economy to recover.

I'm just glad I don't have a work visa about to expire, and only 1 student. I know alot of guys that are having a hard time getting hours, and a limited amount of time to earn them before they have to leave. Frustrating.

 

I think it'll be a long time before I can work full-time as a CFI and not need my old job to pay the rent. But that's ok. I see it as temporary, and I am willing to push on.

I see a tiny, bright light at the end of the tunnel!!!!!!

[heligirl03]

Just to clarify, because I've been gone a few days and it seems this thread took a turn in the meantime...

 

My post had nothing to do with school QUALITY, as I think most of you seem to have correctly gathered. The school-specific statements I made were examples that clearly demonstrate the reflection of the current economy in the BUSINESS portion of the flight training industry, and how that might affect possible career decisions.

 

I have a job where I get paid to fly, I have no investment in public arguments of R22 vs. 300 or big flight school vs. little, sea level vs. high DA, BOSE vs ZULU, etc. etc. I promised that I would remain an active member of the forum, offering ideas and information based on my own experience, regardless of how busy I got. I worked six 15hr days last week and here I am!

 

Fly safe all.

HG03

[BOATFIXERGUY]

Just to clarify, because I've been gone a few days and it seems this thread took a turn in the meantime...

 

My post had nothing to do with school QUALITY, as I think most of you seem to have correctly gathered. The school-specific statements I made were examples that clearly demonstrate the reflection of the current economy in the BUSINESS portion of the flight training industry, and how that might affect possible career decisions.

 

I have a job where I get paid to fly, I have no investment in public arguments of R22 vs. 300 or big flight school vs. little, sea level vs. high DA, BOSE vs ZULU, etc. etc. I promised that I would remain an active member of the forum, offering ideas and information based on my own experience, regardless of how busy I got. I worked six 15hr days last week and here I am!

 

Fly safe all.

HG03

 

I agree that your post had nothing to do with picking on a school...I'm not sure where COhelipilot got that idea. Maybe his post was meant for another thread?

 

BTW, who is COhelipilot? Is this Casey? Update your profile!

[COhelipilot]

I guess my post sent the wrong message. I never meant to offend people. I read some of the posts and I got the impression that the intent of some people was to try to put their school ahead of others. I never meant to try to tell people what to do with their time or to imply that pilots were not in the practice of bettering them selves. One of the posts before mine took some pretty serious stabs at flight schools and I was replying to that... I am sorry to have taken away from the purpose of the post i guess i interpreted it as something else. I just hope to establish a community of pilots who are commonly interested in the betterment of our industry and ourselves as pilots. Thats all.... As far as stability I guess anyones guess is as good as mine... best of luck to all of us... once again I apologize if I offended anyone. I should have read the original post first instead of the reply's before I posted my reply.

[clay]

OH Brother.... is COhelipilot's initials C.B.? . . . . . . .some of us know where DP's comments were pointed, most don't. no biggie. lets all fly and have a good ole' time

[RkyMtnHI]

OH Brother.... is COhelipilot's initials C.B.? . . . . . . .some of us know where DP's comments were pointed, most don't. no biggie. lets all fly and have a good ole' time

 

 

Hey Clay,

 

actually, my comments weren't "pointed" in any direction except to share my experience with someone that i respect that asked what i think is an extremely pertinent question now days, not just for people looking for a job, but for students as well. If any one school or person took that as a personal attack then maybe they should look closer at their operation. I was not focusing on any one school, just a few of the ones that i think lost their way. One of the CFIs that i spoke of moved to another state to work for Premier, and found after he had moved his family that they had closed the doors without notice.

 

The comment about "working on safety and focusing on what really matters"; well, i sincerely believe he is right, but i also think the days of putting your head down and not paying attention to what is going on around you are gone. I believe that in order to change the way things have gone we are going to have to step up to the plate and demand a better way. One owner of a school, when asked about over billing the VA, said: "that's the way it's done in this industry". If that is true, which i pray it's not, then we have to change, we have to find a better way.. we must demand integrity. If we don't, then who is going to do it?

 

I know it's hard for students, and for CFI's working at schools.. Lyn and i have discussed this at length, and he has even written an article about it. The schools have power over the people there, and some of them use it to extremes. I call it being held hostage. When you first start training you are told "you're on a year long interview, do what you're told and don't make waves". This permeates the whole culture, and even the CFIs are afraid to stand up because they fear being black balled in the industry.

 

Ok, you are thinking, "most schools aren't like that", well, first off, i hope that's true, second, this is the reason for my first post... to give people an idea about how to decide which ones are and which ones are not. i am 53 and have been thru some good and some bad in my past, made some good choices and some bad, and have hopefully learned from most of it, but even with this experience and being a pretty bright guy, i missed a lot of stuff and it cost me a ton of money.. it won't be easy to recover, but i expect easier for me than a lot of the young people out there. Think of the kids that are still struggling with the aftermath of Silver State, and Premier and others... not only are they in debt up to their necks, but some have had their dreams crushed and will probably never recover from it..... THAT is the reason for my post.

 

one more thing, about being negative: "It is not only ridiculous but also very sad that with all the problems in our industry, we have the power to fix, we are spending our energy posting negative things about other training facilities. In this type of economy we should all be working together to help stabilize an improve our trade. All flight schools have their problems and their assets..PERIOD. The ones that claim they don't are flat out lying. Flight schools come and go pretty often. In my local area there is only one that has lasted more than about five years."

 

i might have said "in my local area four of the five have been in business for five years or more and some are quite strong!" and i will say that in my area four of the five DO work together quite well (an issue that Clay schooled me on a few months ago) .

 

and please, as someone else already asked, let's talk about solutions, tell us how YOU would work together to stabilize and improve our trade. Seriously.

 

ok, off the soapbox.

 

dp

[clay]

and please, as someone else already asked, let's talk about solutions, tell us how YOU would work together to stabilize and improve our trade. Seriously.

 

ok, off the soapbox.

 

dp

 

 

Pay me more.

[permison]

Pay me more.

 

Many agree with you.

http://blog.aopa.org/asfblog/?p=413&WT...WT.mc_sect=blog