natty dread Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Last night I flew my first cross country. It was probably the coolest experience of my life. I flew along the beach to Miami and took a small tour around downtown. The moon was full and reflecting off of the Atlantic on one side and the lights of the city on the other. I could hear the Miami Vice theme song playing in my head over and over. I thought I loved flying before but now, I REALLY love it! What a privilege and blessing it is to fly helicopters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagMan Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 That's great, I'm glad you enjoyed the flight! I personally don't enjoy flying night unaided. It is just an entirely different setting of flying. I can't say I actually fly yet, I just crew. I won't start learning to fly until spring of next year. But none the less, theres just so much more you can visually see while utilizing night vision goggles. I think once I start learning to fly, and get into the phase of night flying, it will be difficult for me to overcome flying without the aid of goggles, but I know I will eventually get over it. With a full moon its less demanding, but with 0% illume, forget it! I sure will miss those night vision goggles come December when I leave Army aviation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inferno Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Congrats man. Wait for your first night solo x-country. It was surreal, but it scared the crap out of me. Pitch black, and the little robbie making all kinds of sounds you never noticed before. Didn;t help I was flying over pitch black fields in the central valley, not knowing if I would be landing on open field or a walnut orchard... Still, amazing. And being over miami at night, that would be amazing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 When you compare the logbook of the average fixed wing pilot and the average helicopter pilot, you will find that helicopter pilots have very little night or IFR flight time. Therefore, helicopter pilots are afraid of the dark and of clouds. All kidding aside, because of where helicopter pilots go a majority of the time, there is little night flying. Exceptions are EMS and ENG pilots and pilots flying into or out of lighted heliports. The biggest thing to remember about flying at night is that if you have an engine failure, turn on your landing light and check the terrain below. If you don't like it, turn the light off so you won't be scared. In reality, flying at night does take a different skill set from flying during the day. And it is an awesome sight and thrill. Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLHooker Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 When you compare the logbook of the average fixed wing pilot and the average helicopter pilot, you will find that helicopter pilots have very little night or IFR flight time. Therefore, helicopter pilots are afraid of the dark and of clouds. I would have to disagree. I punch in whenever I can. Also, we are mandated by our command to log unaided. Obviously I prefer the goggles, but am certainly not afraid of the dark or clouds. CHAD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewie Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 The biggest thing to remember about flying at night is that if you have an engine failure, turn on your landing light and check the terrain below. If you don't like it, turn the light off so you won't be scared. Rofl...I'm using that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) I would have to disagree. I punch in whenever I can. Also, we are mandated by our command to log unaided. Obviously I prefer the goggles, but am certainly not afraid of the dark or clouds. CHAD Chad, The military side is a different kettle of fish. The military equips their helicopters in a manner that improves the level of safety for night and IFR. Some of this equipment includes things like NVGs and continual training. Plus they operate under calculated risk. Continual training is probably one of the most important items in the mix. It instills more and more confidence in the pilot as the pilot does more of it. The afraid of the dark or clouds was a tongue in cheek remark. However, for three years, I worked for a large helicopter operator that also operates fixed wing aircraft. And I was able to compare resumes of both helicopter and fixed wing pilots. You could see a big difference between the two groups in instrument and night time. FW pilots average around 10% instrument time. A little higher when they first get their instrument rating, then dropping off some until they start working in a segment of the industry that flies IFR regularly. On the other hand, for most helicopter pilots, the percentage of helicopter time is the highest when they get the rating and it continually drops as their flight time increases. The averages I saw were 1% or less. The one exception I saw were pilots that flew any appreciable amount of time in the North Sea. Surprisingly GOM pilots were not much higher than the average. Mostly I believe due to lack of approaches and IFR down there usually means fog. Things that are holding back Helicopter IFR are things like scarcity of helicopter approaches, lack of IFR equipment (deice/anti-ice), no helicopter friendly IFR routings. That is changing, but I believe it will be a few years before you see much of a change. As for night, fixed wing pilot resume I have looked at seem to average between 20 and 30% night though the averages do seem to vary more widely depending on what part of the industry they were in. Helicopter pilot resumes seem to have night time numbers closer to 2 to 3%. The exceptions there were EMS and police pilots, whose averages were more in line with the fixed wing pilots. Corporate and ENG pilot times were higher than the average, but not to the degree of EMS or police. The biggest item effecting this I believe is the lack of lit heliports. That will improve when the operators of these heliports see a need to do so. Currently the helicopter infrastructure is way behind that of fixed wing operations. Helicopter IFR operations are currently in about the same boat as general aviation fixed wing IFR operations were in the 1950's and night operations are further behind than that in many ways. The helicopter industry is catching up especially through the use of technology. Now if the FAA would step up to the plate and do it's part. Edited October 7, 2009 by rick1128 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Congrats man. Wait for your first night solo x-country. It was surreal, but it scared the crap out of me. Pitch black, and the little robbie making all kinds of sounds you never noticed before. Didn;t help I was flying over pitch black fields in the central valley, not knowing if I would be landing on open field or a walnut orchard... Still, amazing. And being over miami at night, that would be amazing. I have to agree with Inferno. I spent a lot of time flying back and forth between Phoenix, AZ and Carlsbad, CA in my R44 and a lot of that was at night over the desert far from any populated areas or even roads. The first few times I was questioning my sanity and the "sounds" that I heard were all to real for me. An engine failure would have meant a blind descent into who knows what. During those flights, I flew my R44 like I would a 172 - 8500' (2000' above the highest terrain I would be crossing), constant eyes on my EDM800 (6 point EGT/CHT) looking for any anomalies that signaled the beginning of an engine problem and more than a little time on the gauges. Over time, I learned the route (my trips out to Phoenix were done during the day), made slight variations in that route that would keep me closer to the 10 freeway for longer periods of time, mapped a great GPS route (that I still use) and reminded myself of the calculated risk I was taking each time I flew the R44 over the desert at night. One very curious thing that I came to realize is that for 20+ years I had flown single engine fixed wing aircraft over all manner of terrain at night and not given it much thought, yet I was stressing big time each time I flew my 44 at night, yet if you think about it, the risks are the same (IMO). If you are over the desert in a 172 and you lose the engine, short of landing on a lighted road, you have the same chances as you do in the R44. In addition, I reminded myself that my bird was well maintained, no one ever flew it but me, I had advanced navigation (4 separate GPS systems in my R44) and engine trending and monitoring along with full IFR panel. I also took every precaution (fuel, route, etc) that I could to ensure a successful outcome of my flight and at night, I fly the helicopter like I do my planes - 2000' higher than any terrain I am crossing. Many times there was nothing to see. The moon was low, or not fully visible, and I felt like I could have been underwater instead of thousands of feet above the desert- the glow of the instruments the only thing keeping me company. In the end, I don't think flying a single engine helicopter at night (VFR) is any more dangerous than flying a single engine fixed wing at night (VFR) with the exception that if you lose the engine in your helicopter, you don't have as much time to think about the trip to the ground as you do in a fixed wing. Just my $.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 Helojunkie... I would not agree that vfr at night rotorwing is as safe as fixedwing. The airplane is MUCH more stable than the helicopter. When cues are low at night you are basically flying IFR... Experience can help in the night realm... but you certainly are not as safe... statistically or otherwise speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Helojunkie... I would not agree that vfr at night rotorwing is as safe as fixedwing. The airplane is MUCH more stable than the helicopter. When cues are low at night you are basically flying IFR... Experience can help in the night realm... but you certainly are not as safe... statistically or otherwise speaking. Apiaguy - I guess each pilot is different. I fly night VFR over the desert and mountains all the time in my R44 and find it no more difficult (or unsafe) than in my 172 or my Meridian for that matter (except the Magic 1500 autopilot I have in the Meridian). And from a safety standpoint, I guess you are counting accidents caused by loss of reference to outside horizon that would be no different for helicopter pilots than fixed wing right..? (Continued VFR into IMC conditions). I am referring to those accidents not caused by pilot error since pilot error accidents, day or night typically do not have good outcomes and that is why we get to learn from them. As far as not be "statistically" safe at night in a helicopter vs. a fixed wing plane, can you point me to those stats..? The latest Nall report does not include stats for helicopters and I was unable to find an online reference for those numbers. Many Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 sure, if you just mean survivability at night in an emergency landing I guess you could say you are just as safe in the helicopter.... you might be "more" safe considering you don't have to plow the field....I am not crunching any numbers here... just my experience and perceptions... I'm suprised you feel no different in the helicopter. I was refering to the lack of stability in general in the helicopter that if you don't correct will not correct itself, where as the airplane will generally correct itself when upset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Apiaguy- Helicopters can be safer in any and all phases of flight than an airplane, excepting hard IFR (hard IFR equals actual IMC with 'difficult' weather- ice, high altitudes, etc.). I'll admit that the safety advantage of helicopters is more potential than actual, and that's even less evident in statistics because of what helicopters are used for- low, heavy and out of the airway system. To the subject of the thread, I LOVE night flights! Learn how to do it, especially how to see at night, be conservative and plan for potential issues, and there's nothing to like a severe clear winter night, especially moonless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 sure, if you just mean survivability at night in an emergency landing I guess you could say you are just as safe in the helicopter.... you might be "more" safe considering you don't have to plow the field....I am not crunching any numbers here... just my experience and perceptions... I'm suprised you feel no different in the helicopter. I was refering to the lack of stability in general in the helicopter that if you don't correct will not correct itself, where as the airplane will generally correct itself when upset. When I first started flying at night in the R44 I did question my sanity but it was all new to me. I think back 24 years to my first night cross country flights and I am sure I felt the same way. After about 50 night flights to and from Phoenix to San Diego, I am over my fear of the unknown. As to the stability of the helicopter, I don't "feel" any difference. Yes, each flies differently but I don't feel "more safe" in one over the other in most cases. Of course, I have never been in IMC in my R44 only under the hood so I guess I don't really know how I would feel in that situation. Hopefully never have to find out!! I know that in my helicopter I have to respond with control input when something happens where I "could" do nothing in my plane and allow dynamic stability to eventually work out the oscillations, but I prefer to correct the situation instead of living through the oscillations, so for me there is almost no difference in the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLHooker Posted October 8, 2009 Report Share Posted October 8, 2009 Rick, I understand. I started off flying fixed wing... and grew up around fixed wing pilots. And I know you're right about Military helo's, etc... But, it's still very much up to the command and the individual pilots. They are MINS for a reason.... if you go above and beyond, it's up to you. CHAD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R22139RJ Posted October 10, 2009 Report Share Posted October 10, 2009 Does anyone else feel like they are in Star Wars when flying over a city? I love flying at night. The air is smooth, traffic is easy to spot, the lights on the town. Its just a pain to try to spot those damn rotating beacons. You really grasp the concept of off-center viewing to find where you need to go. Now, if only Chewbacca could make the jump to hyperspace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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