R22 Lease Partners/Timebuilding

[Jsta22]

a couple pilot buddies and I looked into and have contact on leasing a newly overhauled R22. We are trying to hammer down the costs as much as possible, and in talking with our lease guy, he has a hookup for a decent rate on insurance, and the numbers work out to be pretty acceptable with 5+ people.. which i hear is actually pretty common to have maybe even more guys go in on the deal. 10 people would bring that cost down even more! From the spread sheet we worked out with them, Its looking to be in the $125-$135 an hr range! That's all costs covered! Insurance, Fuel, Reserves for maintenance, etc etc.

We worked the numbers on all flying at least 15 hrs a month each, so adding any hrs on top of that would just bring your hrly cost down a few bucks an hr.

If interested, We are in the eastern PA/NJ area. so just PM Me asap! if this works out we'd have access to our own r22 anytime and only have to schedule around each other rather than 30people at a flight school or at a flight schools rates for rentals! Free's up alot of time, and most of all cash! Imagine getting 2x the hrs for the same money!

hope to hear from people soon!

Thanks

[r22butters]

How come 'time building' offers, and stuff like this, never seem to come out to California?

[adam32]

How do your numbers break down to $125/hr? Lease cost will be $90-110/hr, fuel will be about $40/hr, mx I figure at $10/hr for an R22, insurance will be $8000-25000/yr even if he has a hook up. It will still be cheaper then renting...until a problem comes up (and one will) then everyone will be blaming each other and no one will take the responsibility to pay for it...

[choppedair]

Yeah it seems like a good idea until some yahoo has a big over-speed, then what?

[Goldy]

How do your numbers break down to $125/hr? Lease cost will be $90-110/hr, fuel will be about $40/hr, mx I figure at $10/hr for an R22, insurance will be $8000-25000/yr even if he has a hook up. It will still be cheaper then renting...until a problem comes up (and one will) then everyone will be blaming each other and no one will take the responsibility to pay for it...

 

Adam- couldnt agree more....I was just about to post the same thing.

 

Jsta22- You might want to share how you came up with those numbers, they do seem quite a bit lower than what we normally see.

 

Goldy

[delorean]

5+ people? How you gonna figure out who gets it on the weekend? Rotating schedule so you only get it every 5th weekend?

 

2 pilot partnerships can work, 3 might work, 4-5-6+ do not.

 

You invest all that money to *own* an aircraft, then it's a freakin' committee meeting everytime you want to fly it--especially weekends and holidays. 1/5 isn't much of a voting share either. Just takes three guys to agree and you're out.

 

You are MUCH better off going in with ONE other guy and buying one that has a few hundred hours left on it. Time it out and sell it off to a overhaul shop.

[ADRidge]

Having looked into this type of thing myself countless times, I'd be interested in seeing the numbers myself.

[Whistlerpilot]

Hey all. After many false starts I finally got an R22 leased and am making it work with time builders and some flight instruction. I am doing 200 hours in 90 days, with the possibility of extending it another 30 days if needed.

 

Here are the costs I am working with. $105. hr dry lease, $900. per month insurance which works out to $13.5 hr, maintenance is done by the owner if I bring the ship to him. I am 2.5 hours flight time away. If I break anything I am responsible. Fuel is the usual, figure $40 to $45 per hour. Oil is $1.5 hr. I am lucky so far and have hangar space.

 

105. Lease

13.5 Insurance

10. Maint (variable could be $0. or could be thousands)

45. Fuel (variable)

1.5 Oil

 

$175. hour

 

Started the lease on Sept 21 and have flown 50 hours so far. If any one is interested in time building give me a PM. It will be available up to Christmas. I have my CFI and working with several students. The helicopter is flying in the Pacific NW. Seattle to Whistler/Pemberton.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Whistlerpilot

[Jsta22]

Adam- couldnt agree more....I was just about to post the same thing.

 

Jsta22- You might want to share how you came up with those numbers, they do seem quite a bit lower than what we normally see.

 

Goldy

 

I thought the numbers seemed a bit low too! and have myself seen people leasing and spending more like $150-$175 an hr.. I'll see if I can look over the guys exact spread sheet to see just how he came up with these numbers. I was a bit shocked when i heard these prices and told him, if confirmed, I'm jumping in for a ton of hours!

Just using my calculator on my phone during toilet time, haha, i was coming up with $145-$150 range, but as we added a guy for the set costs and actually added more hours each for the month, even a simple 5 extra hrs total each, the price came down like $7-$10 an hr!

Again, I'll see if I can get his info/spread sheet and clarify! Maybe he missed something, or is more of a math wiz than us, and figured out the break down better (and I got straight A's in math, haha)

as far as sharing the 22 and coming up with schedules? I've known people who have done this, and I know for sure of at least 4 partners, possibly even 6 (unless they were just regular time builders) and they never had an issue. Most of us aren't doing this just for a bird to have for a joy ride, But to build time, So when ever I can get in it, i will... I'm not picky! Who knows how others would team work with each other. I'd be interested to see how these guys made out cause i haven't seen them since they gave their bird back (Cessna by the way) and all moved on after building their hours.. Would still love to hear if any interest though. so keep looking, I'll get his spread sheet info!

[Jsta22]

Hey all. After many false starts I finally got an R22 leased and am making it work with time builders and some flight instruction. I am doing 200 hours in 90 days, with the possibility of extending it another 30 days if needed.

 

Here are the costs I am working with. $105. hr dry lease, $900. per month insurance which works out to $13.5 hr, maintenance is done by the owner if I bring the ship to him. I am 2.5 hours flight time away. If I break anything I am responsible. Fuel is the usual, figure $40 to $45 per hour. Oil is $1.5 hr. I am lucky so far and have hangar space.

 

105. Lease

13.5 Insurance

10. Maint (variable could be $0. or could be thousands)

45. Fuel (variable)

1.5 Oil

 

$175. hour

 

Started the lease on Sept 21 and have flown 50 hours so far. If any one is interested in time building give me a PM. It will be available up to Christmas. I have my CFI and working with several students. The helicopter is flying in the Pacific NW. Seattle to Whistler/Pemberton.

 

Ok. just looked at his spread sheet, Am still trying to copy and paste, or even upload it.. But what it seems most people are doing is the $105/flight hour lease option which our spread sheet numbers do come out to $173 an hr.

Has anyone tried the monthly payment option? Because as it looks on his numbers, With 5 guys splitting the base monthly cost, insurance, maint, fuel and lease/hr payment. He is coming up with the lower numbers that i stated earlier! Which I'm still a bit confused on how. But doing the spread sheet math,Its all proven and coming out..

If anyone has tried the monthly payment option thru their lease co, Its ike $2300/mnth, and $65/flight hr. Makes much more sense.

Has Insurance in there at $9 grand (thats what was quoted)

Hanger fee at $300/month

Fuel, Maint reserve, oil etc.

Seems legit.. But if someone can maybe run these numbers theirselves and see what they get, Please do and post results! I'd be interested to see what people come up with.

Thanks for the replies!

[Jsta22]

Ok.. figured out the Blemish in the math.. There was a little thing he was missing, and was fixed! Damn, I liked the original numbers of $125-$130!! But either way, Still only coming out to $147 with 5 guys in on the deal together. 5 seems to be the magic number, Get a good hr/rate, But not too many guys to schedule around, so works out.

But to me, $147 an hour works great! saves me $100+/hr from flight schools rates!

I do as myself, Is it worth all the trouble? or should i just hop on with one of these timebuilders I see offering up $175/hr?

Any opinions?

[ADRidge]

By my numbers, with a monthly lease and all that jazz, 80 hours a month on the helicopter would cost 153.95

 

How many hours a month between everyone do you anticipate, given weather and all those factors?

[ADRidge]

Speaking of.... if anyone in the DFW area is interested in something similar, feel free to PM me.

[Jsta22]

By my numbers, with a monthly lease and all that jazz, 80 hours a month on the helicopter would cost 153.95

 

How many hours a month between everyone do you anticipate, given weather and all those factors?

 

We worked out exactly 80 hrs a month between us all.. the hourly cost actually goes down a bit the more hours we fly, Or by adding another person/partner.

Spread sheet seems to be correct this time, And we were right around that $153/hr and less with another person or 2 added in the mix. Still trying to figure out the whole thing and if its worth it or not.

[Whistlerpilot]

My advice, get everyone to put the money up front or your partnership will fall apart. There is usually a lease deposit you need to cover too. There also should to be money set aside to cover the insurance deductible and an agreement between you all what will happen if the machine is damaged.

 

80 hours a month is possible but you have to get your group scheduling organized. I just flew 50 hours in 3 weeks but scheduling can be a hassle.

 

Build in a cost buffer for unforseen circumstances.

 

It took me almost a year to get my lease organized but so far it's working well.

 

WP

[Goldy]

Hey Eric- Glad to hear you're flying!

 

Justa- When looking at the monthly payments on a ship, don't forget that the ship depreciates about $60 per hour flown. Or in other words, you have to set aside $60 per hour flown so that at the end of the 2200 hours, you can have the ship overhauled.

 

No matter how you look at it, you're either taking that $60 an hour hit in the aircrafts value, or you're setting aside that money for the overhaul.

 

The actual figure is about $54 an hour, but don't forget you will have some "unbillable" hours just due to maintenance....and the 4400 hour overhaul costs more than a 2200, etc.

 

Goldy

[Jsta22]

Hey Eric- Glad to hear you're flying!

 

Justa- When looking at the monthly payments on a ship, don't forget that the ship depreciates about $60 per hour flown. Or in other words, you have to set aside $60 per hour flown so that at the end of the 2200 hours, you can have the ship overhauled.

 

No matter how you look at it, you're either taking that $60 an hour hit in the aircrafts value, or you're setting aside that money for the overhaul.

 

The actual figure is about $54 an hour, but don't forget you will have some "unbillable" hours just due to maintenance....and the 4400 hour overhaul costs more than a 2200, etc.

 

Goldy

Hey Goldy,

Yea, Looked into all of that. We would not be responsible for the overhall Leasing the R22. Its covered by the Leasor.. Not the Leasee

We would not have to worry about the dereciation either as it just either goes back to the leasing company when our lease is up, or we can renew for an extended term if we are still in need of the helicopter. I do understand where you are coming from though , if we were to buy a bird. Thanks

Joe

[Goldy]

Hey Goldy,

Yea, Looked into all of that. We would not be responsible for the overhall Leasing the R22. Its covered by the Leasor.. Not the Leasee

We would not have to worry about the dereciation either as it just either goes back to the leasing company when our lease is up, or we can renew for an extended term if we are still in need of the helicopter. I do understand where you are coming from though , if we were to buy a bird. Thanks

Joe

 

Joe- My error, I figured you were buying a ship to get those lower numbers and may have skipped that part!

 

Good luck, Goldy

[happyappy]

R-22 timebuilding opportunity all winter long in Ft. Laudrdale, florida. I'll be there all winter. Fly where and when you want. Just 2 restrictions. 1) No autos and 2) I am in the helicopter with you. Other than that, it's up to you. We can do long cross country, night hours, whatever you want. Price range is $160 to a maximum of $175 an hour. Call me for details. Whistler Pilot flew with me for 40 hours last year. We flew from Cleveland to New York City and made many off-airport confined space landings along the way. We flew all around Mahattan. What a great experience. I offer the same deal in Cleveland Ohio from May through November. Paul Phone 216-526-1502.

Web: AppleHelicopterAndPhotography.Com and AppleHelicopters.com

[Goldy]

1) No autos

 

Something wrong with doing auto's in an R22?

[Inferno]

They make Frank Robinson cry ;P

 

I can see where he is coming from though, considering it is his ship. Most (don't have numbers infront of me, so i can't verify it) accidents is R22s occur during simulated engine failures. Its a huge liability and risk.

Something wrong with doing auto's in an R22?

[SkidKid]

give Helicopter Solutions a call. See www.HelicopterSolutions.net for info.

 

Good bunch there.

[Tonyroni]

This post is pretty old but if anyone from the original post has gotten something together, please reply. I live in NE PA and am looking for a CFI w/ a leased R22 to build as close to 50 hrs as I can for the SFAR requirements. All my time is in a Schweizer 300 and want to go for my CFI but all the jobs i see are in robbies.

[air9r]

So if I have 4000 hrs in helicopters but only 25 in an R22 can I gain the other 25 to meet the 50 SFAR requirement by providing CFII instruction to a rated sole manipulator? How about safety pilot?

[dankaten]

Air9r, no you cannot give instruction or act as a safety pilot to get those 25 hours. You will need to do the time either solo or with a flight instructor. I would suggest doing it with a flight instructor to that you can practice doing autos and such with an instructor that has been doing them for awhile.