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Instrument Rating?


r22butters

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This topic seemed to spark a pretty good debate recently, so I thought I would dedicate an entire post to it, to see what the rest of you think.

 

I think the instrument rating for us helicopter pilots is overrated. Most of us will probably never fly in IMC, and the ones who want to, probably won't be able to for another thousand hours, or couple of years. Good luck staying proficient. A mere four months after my training, I decided to go up IFR again. Sure, when I removed the hood, I was right over the runway, but it was a messy ride getting there, and I spent so much time just flying, that the instructor had to work the radios.

 

The biggest argument I've heard for the rating, is that it will save your life if you inadvertantly encounter IMC. Sure, that's true, as long as those skills are kept proficiant, and the ship has the right equipment. I have flown 25 R22s, and only three had any IFR stuff, and they were inop on one of them! So unless I want to hang a tie from the compass every time I fly, I guess I'll stick to my main personal minimum, "don't fly in crappy weather!"

 

If you do tend to fly VFR in marginal weather, just make 'unusual attitudes', and 'emergency 180 turns' part of your Commercial recurrent training. There's no need to spend 40hrs., and a butt load of money learning to 'shoot approaches', and 'fly holding patterns' if you never intend on flying IFR missions.

 

I have met a few CFiis, who said there's no way in Hell they would ever take a helicopter into IMC, and yet they were forced to get the rating. It seems a lot of schools have made the Instrument Rating a must, they also want to teach it in the R44 (the most expensive of the training helicopters). That seems like a pretty good racket. I should know, I fell for it, and that was back when there was a "pilot shortage", and student loan money was abundant!

 

So, iIn short, my name is Butters, I'm 38yrs old, I think the Instrument Rating is overrated, and I'm bi-curiuos :blink: ,...and that's ok!

 

Anyway, have fun with this one, I have to go. I'm late fo work,..and those burgurs aren't going to flip themselves? :o

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The biggest reason to get your Instrument rating is that the areas of this industry where one is not required are getting much smaller. Two of the biggest fields for helicopters - the Gulf and EMS both require an instrument rating to even get hired.

 

Now, if you have no intention of ever flying these fields, that's fine, but in this economy who knows how bad you'll need a job in a couple years? Also, don't rationalize getting your Instrument while working in the industry. It's hard enough doing it while a student, never mind while you have a full time job.

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Again, where do people keep getting this huge cost thing?

 

You have to get 150 hours for your com anyways. You have to get 25 hours in a 44 to instruct in it anyways. Even if the IFR ship is $50 more per hour, the cost is nowhere the $14k i keep seeing people quote. Sure, you don't get a chance to do more of the fun stuff, but tie the IFR flight into a xcountry to somewhere youve never been and wana see. I just don;t see what the huge aversion to it is.

 

Its cheep life insurance, like others have said. It doesn't really cost you any more than just getting you com, and employers want you to have it. How hard is it to grasp?

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It is true you will probably never fly IFR ...but during your carreer you will have to face some unexpected bad weather..or you will fly at night when you have no moon and no ground lightingm

In that situations you will thank God you got youe instrument training because even if you are not proficient you will still be able at least to maintain stright and level and that will save your life..

Just an opinion based on personal experience.

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I guess I'll stick to my main personal minimum, "don't fly in crappy weather!"

 

If the “crappy weather” is above company minimums, you go…. If your “personal minimums” are greater than company minimums, you won't have to worry about it because you’ll be unemployed soon enough.

 

Additionally, night VFR can resemble IMC. Again, if your “personal minimum” includes not flying over black holes at night, then refer to the last sentence in the above paragraph.

 

For those of you who want to do this for a living, sometimes you’ll have to fly in crappy weather and that’s a promise. Therefore, stack the chips in your favor and have an IFR certificate in your pocket. Your wife/kids/girlfriend/boyfriend/mom/dad will thank you later.

 

In truth, someday you might have to fly a machine you believe to be unairworthy, at night, in crappy weather over unfamiliar territory for extremely low pay. If this isn’t your cup of tea, then I suggest making a living doing something else.

Edited by Spike
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Well as far as flying a ship that I feel is not airworthy, I didn't sign up for that crap but I also think it (Inst. ticket) will be nice to deal with inadvertent weather/illumination. I also agree that the cost will be minimal due to the fact that I will need the hours towards my CFI/II anyways. I have 95 hrs. and need to get to 200 before I can instruct, so for the next 40 to 45 hrs I'll knock-out the Instrument and still have 50 hours plus to wrap up the Com, CFI, & CFII. Just not as much "FUN" flying w/fam & freinds. My school has an inst. R-22 so the only increase in price will be the Instructor. Finally I have certainly noticed that the CFII at our school seems to be booked alot more than the others with CFI only.

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The flying with instruments training is priceless.

 

However the approaches and general IFR procedures are designed for airplanes, loosely adopted helicopters, and seem antiquated given the computer technology of today.

 

I also found after spending so much time under the hood, people develop the dangerous habit of keeping their heads in the cockpit when operating VFR.

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The biggest reason to get your Instrument rating is that the areas of this industry where one is not required are getting much smaller. Two of the biggest fields for helicopters - the Gulf and EMS both require an instrument rating to even get hired.

 

Now, if you have no intention of ever flying these fields, that's fine, but in this economy who knows how bad you'll need a job in a couple years? Also, don't rationalize getting your Instrument while working in the industry. It's hard enough doing it while a student, never mind while you have a full time job.

 

Not only EMS and the Gulf require an instrument rating. Many of the seismic contracts also require an instrument rating. And just about any contract for for the oil companies require it. Many of the international jobs require at least an instrument rating, if not an ATP.

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Interesting responses, although no one commented on my idea for Commercial pilots to add IFR emergencies to their recurrent training. :unsure: It doesn't take an Instrument Rating to strap on a hood, and hook up with a CFii for some "save your life" training/practice every so often. I thought it was a good idea,...but, oh well? :blink:

 

As for flying at night. I have around 230hrs. of 'unaided' night, and although I have done the long CC, over the dark desert, with nothing but the sparsely lit freeway below, I have no desire to do it alone. Also, I've never flown over "black holes", whatever they are?

 

I suppose I might feel differently about IFR, if I could find someone to pay me to fly, and I was flying a bigger helicopter. I'm sure IFR, or even pitch black, VFR, night feels a lot different in a Bell 222, than an R22/R44, espesially when money's involved? :huh:

 

I have often wondered what I would do, if an employer told me to fly a helicopter I felt was 'unairworthy', in weather I felt was 'unsafe'. :o If I had the integrety to say no, it sounds like I would loose my job, but if I go, and something goes wrong, its my head on the chopping block! At least the Regs are on my side, if I say no. I have read a few articles on the importance of setting "personal minimums", but what's the point, if an employer won't let you stick to them?

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That flight you did over the dark desert with the freeway below? Imagine the flight without the freeway, ala - “black hole”.

 

The key words are in bold, “you believe”. You may believe a lot of things but your employer may not have the same opinion. Personal minimums are just that, personal. If your “personal limits” conflict with the profit margin, you better have an excuse the boss has never heard before……….

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Sounds like that "black hole", would be against the VFR night limits of the POH, at least for Robinsons. No thanks anyway, seems like it would be too easy to flip over, hit something, or loose-it due to dissorientation. :blink:

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seems like it would be too easy to flip over, hit something, or loose-it due to dissorientation. :blink:

 

Probably wouldnt be so easy to flip over if you were current on your instrument work?? Just a thought.

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Sounds like that "black hole", would be against the VFR night limits of the POH, at least for Robinsons. No thanks anyway, seems like it would be too easy to flip over, hit something, or loose-it due to dissorientation. :blink:

 

Hence, the necessity of an instrument rating. Are you ever going to fly IFR in a robbie? No way, not intentionally. Will you fly IFR in a bigger helicopter later in your career? Possibly, if you take your career in that direction.

 

The real question is does that really matter. What would you have done if you had lost visual with that highway, or if traffic just dried up? The odds of surviving inadvertent IMC are MUCH higher if you are instrument rated. Current or not.

 

At some point in your career you WILL end up needing to escape from worsening weather. Maybe you won't be full blown IFR, but I guarantee that you will end up flying at some point with little or no visual references.

 

Think about this: Minimum legal visibility in most airspace you will fly in is 3 miles or less. So, if the visibility was 5 miles with 1500 foot ceiling, would you fly? If your answer is no you are going to have a difficult time keeping your job once you get out of the flight training world. While that might be below minimums for some operators, it is nowhere near minimums for others.

 

Whats my point? At 5 miles you can't see the horizon. If you can't see the horizon, and have terrain with no definition below you, you are going to have a difficult time keeping the greasy side down (or up as it applies) without some instrument knowledge. You might not be on the instruments full time, but without them you can get into trouble really quickly.

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Goldy Posted Today, 22:05

Probably wouldnt be so easy to flip over if you were current on your instrument work?? Just a thought

 

Not if your ship doesn't have any IFR instruments. :huh:

 

I can see though, that trying to convince die hard instrument pilots to see where I'm coming from, is like trying to get a 300 pilot to like an R22. It just can't be done! :blink:

 

Its been a good debate though. :o :lol: :huh:

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You are completely missing the point. Also, an AI is a nice addition to any normal instrument package. Most of the ships I fly have one, and they aren't ridiculously expensive, so convincing your boss to add one shouldn't be too hard (especially when safety is concerned)....

 

The discussion here is regarding the instrument rating, not whether or not the ship you happen to be flying when you f up has an IFR package... You seem to be the only one who thinks that an Instrument rating is a bad idea.

Not if your ship doesn't have any IFR instruments. :huh:

 

I can see though, that trying to convince die hard instrument pilots to see where I'm coming from, is like trying to get a 300 pilot to like an R22. It just can't be done! :blink:

 

Its been a good debate though. :o :lol: :huh:

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No one has mentioned yet a crucial point concerning why you should get your IFR ticket....

 

Our industry is controlled heavily by insurance. I guess it must be the possibility of bad, expensive things happening in a helicopter??? 10yrs ago an Instrument rating was just icing, maybe something you had if you started out FW and flew IFR (not necessarily IMC) a lot. Well now you just gotta have it, operators get insurance breaks with IFR pilots regardless of whether their programs operate IFR or IMC or MVFR or you name it. Why purposely put your name at the bottom of the pile? You'll need it to fly tours even. Yes it's hard at first. Yes it's a pain overall. Yes the view sucks from under the hood. But in the end you will also be a much more precise VFR pilot and you will be waaaay more comfortable operating in heavily trafficked, highly controlled airspace. If you still need convincing, I have had I think 5 high-time pilots walk through the door in the last 6mo needing an IFR ticket. "Back then you just didn't need one!" they all say. Now they have to squeeze their butts back in a 22 for 40hrs to get it done so they can get a job or keep the one they have, and I'm the only one small enough to carry fuel for more than 1 approach. Sound fun?

 

There was another thread going earlier where someone was asking about whether to do IFR in FW because it was cheaper, among other things. People, if this is your career you are talking about, for heaven's sake please do not base your decisions on getting the cheapest education you can find. If you want to be a medical doctor, you do not go to veterinary school. Stop trying to reinvent the wheel...you will waste time and money trying to cut corners and the people who knuckled down and get it done will have your job.

 

Also, no one has pointed out yet that flying IFR is not only about saving your life in IIMC. Plenty of IFR flying to be done VMC (e.g. the GoM, EMS). You can't file without the rating, and if you can't file someone who can is gettin' that job.

 

Cheers! :)

 

HG03

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Inferno Posted Today, 00:52

You are completely missing the point. Also, an AI is a nice addition to any normal instrument package. Most of the ships I fly have one, and they aren't ridiculously expensive, so convincing your boss to add one shouldn't be too hard (especially when safety is concerned)....

 

The discussion here is regarding the instrument rating, not whether or not the ship you happen to be flying when you f up has an IFR package... You seem to be the only one who thinks that an Instrument rating is a bad idea.

 

I'm missing the point? :o That's pretty funny,...since I'm the one who started this discusion. :blink: I'm glad that you get to fly the more up-to-date ships, however, of the 46 different helicopters that I have flown, only 5 have been IFR equipped.

 

I don't think an Instrument Rating is a bad thing, I just don't think it should be forced on all of us. There are other ways to be prepared for IIMC, than getting that rating, we all started it with the ten hours of instrument needed for our Commercials. Just spend an hour every few months with a CFii practicing IFR emergencies, and you should be more than prepared. If all you want to do is fly VFR, that should be enough.

 

And yes, I do realize I am alone on this. <_<

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No, you are not alone on this. I have often thought the IR is unnecessary for most of what

we do. If I weren't working on my airplane IR, I doubt I would be able to fly an even half decent

approach. I fly day VFR only and get about 15 minutes under the hood per year during

annual training. I fly with quite a few pilots with no IR. The EMS guys have crashed quite

a few helicopters with IR pilots in very well equipped aircraft. Is the industry any safer

now that pretty much everyone but ag sprayers are requiring an IR? I would say no. So

why are we doing it? As heligirl said: insurance companies.

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Hence, the necessity of an instrument rating. Are you ever going to fly IFR in a robbie? No way, not intentionally. Will you fly IFR in a bigger helicopter later in your career? Possibly, if you take your career in that direction.

 

The real question is does that really matter. What would you have done if you had lost visual with that highway, or if traffic just dried up? The odds of surviving inadvertent IMC are MUCH higher if you are instrument rated. Current or not.

 

At some point in your career you WILL end up needing to escape from worsening weather. Maybe you won't be full blown IFR, but I guarantee that you will end up flying at some point with little or no visual references.

 

Think about this: Minimum legal visibility in most airspace you will fly in is 3 miles or less. So, if the visibility was 5 miles with 1500 foot ceiling, would you fly? If your answer is no you are going to have a difficult time keeping your job once you get out of the flight training world. While that might be below minimums for some operators, it is nowhere near minimums for others.

 

Whats my point? At 5 miles you can't see the horizon. If you can't see the horizon, and have terrain with no definition below you, you are going to have a difficult time keeping the greasy side down (or up as it applies) without some instrument knowledge. You might not be on the instruments full time, but without them you can get into trouble really quickly.

 

A big, big Amen!

 

As a working pro of some decades, there are times when doing the job becomes a calculated risk. There will be times you DON'T WANT TO GO! But, that's what you're paid to do. Any moke can do the easy jobs when it's clear, blue and 22, you're a PRO. If there's no rational reason to decline, and you have a reasonable expectation of being able to do whatever it is you're expected to do.... You launch into 500 & 3, 800 & 2, 300 & 1- whatever the mins are- and then it goes to heck in a handbasket. It happens, it will continue to happen.

 

I'm as 'windy' as anybody. I believe in having an escape in my back pocket, and I use it. I deviate early. I decline for forecasts. I abort when I work too hard. I've always been this way, and I've been IIMC way too often for comfort... I've only had to continue IIMC/IFR twice in 41 years. I am still alive. The extra depth of knowledge across the whole spectrum of the profession, and the ability to keep it upright and under control on the gauges is the reason.

Yes, you really could do the job without IFR training. You'd never know what you didn't know, and you'd get along fine, if you took no chances- ever, and based that on the most conservative parameters, and you're lucky. You'd have to be lucky too, because I've seen forecasts so wrong and weather change dramatically within minutes that I know there will be times when you'd better be more than a journeyman.

IFR training is DULL and hard work. It's expensive. It's also, as I said before, a depth of the technical knowledge that your average VFR pilot won't ever get, aircraft, systems and environment. It's also 'condensed experience'. For a helo guy, it's a very, very different feeling, IMC and IFR, knowing that not only can you not just land where and when you want- down is now a very serious direction, to be handled with extreme care. Getting that thing down means you have to think and plan well, far ahead. Take that lightly, and being lucky won't be enough.

Get the IFR training and the rating. Go fly with an AG Pilot. Take the Western Helicopters' "Touchdown Auto and Emergency Procedures". Don't just bungle around the sky until you plow into something hard.

Edited by Wally
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The IR is a good thing, of course. But let's not pretend it's going to save your butt when you do

something stupid. Most of us are far from current and we fly aircraft that are not equipped for

instrument flying. Maybe some of these pilots that crash are continuing into conditions that they might not have without the rating? Get the rating. Is it a necessity for many jobs? No.

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I forgot to say that I totally agree with whoever said you should go up FW IMC when you're getting your rating and then again after you have it. Totally worth it since most of us train IFR but never IMC. Completely different ballgame. Makes you love VMC but appreciate IFR.

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If you want to progress in the vocation, you have to have the instrument ticket. If you ever want to fly larger helicopters, an instrument ticket is required before you can even be considered. It makes you a more precise pilot, capable of maintaining a course, a heading, an altitude, whatever is required at the time, without even thinking about it much. It makes you more comfortable flying, and it gives you more options when things go south. In short, you're a better pilot, and for most jobs, you just won't get hired without it. Whine about the cost if you want, but you had to pay a lot for the basic certificate, didn't you? If you didn't know that the IR was going to be required before you paid all that, then I have no sympathy for you, because you should have done the research before shelling out the dollars. Some things are mandatory in any job, and an instrument rating is just one of those things. Like it or not, that's the way it is.

 

Personally, flying IFR is one of the more enjoyable aspects of flying. I like being able to do things that only a very small percentage of the human population can do. Flying an ILS in 100' ceilings in the middle of the night, keeping the needles centered and having the runway show up right in front where it should be is very satisfying, and it helps make all the other male bovine fecal matter I have to put up with worth it.

Edited by Gomer Pylot
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I survived an IIMC encounter last August. I was in an R44 Instrument Trainer. If I had not been in an Instrument Trainer I would be dead. 100%. No questions asked. If I did not have my IFR rating I would be dead. 100% No questions asked. One of these days I will write the story down but it is a textbook example of how its not one thing that kills you but a series of small things that add up...

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