IFR Ships?

[r22butters]

OK, the poll is in, and it seems that about 99% of you believe that without the Instrument Rating even the stricktest of VFR pilots is doomed to die one day from loss of visability.

 

And since none of you thinks that my idea for VFR Commercial pilots to, (instead of an IR), make IFR emergencies part of their recurrent training to prepare for IIMC, is a good one, my question is this:

 

Why then are all helicopters not IFR equiped? What good is the rating, if your ship doesn't have what you need to use it? How else are we supposed to keep it level, the compass?,...ya right!

 

Forgive me if this seems to be harping up the same tree again, but these are the things that pop up into my head, as I spend my days standing in front of sizzeling, dead meat (at least I think its meat) , while my license sits in my wallet collecting dust.

[Gomer Pylot]

Money. Pure and simple. It costs too much to equip all helicopters for IFR. It requires an additional generator, at least SAS if not full autopilot, and lots of other equipment. Equipping an R22 for IFR would come close to doubling the cost, maybe more.

[Inferno]

I think he means just an instrument package. And the answer is still $$....

 

EDIT

 

And if you wana do it on the cheep, we can use the cat and duck method....

Edited October 15, 2009 by Inferno

[apiaguy]

it is not merely an instrument package needed to make a helicopter IFR certified. Most every helicopter would require some sort of stability augmentation system due to the inherent instability of the helicopter and testing that shows most pilots (even IFR rated) will lose control of a helicopter in IMC within 2 minutes.

You can add the instruments and make the helicopter able to "practice" IFR training really easy and that doesn't add much cost at all.... basic IFR instruments would maybe add $2-3k to the new price of a helicopter.

[rick1128]

r22, you are in denial. There are many situations where not having instrument skills will increase your level of risk. Night VFR on a dark night with no ground lights, day VFR off shore with no defined horizon, low vis operations and so on. Yes on going training in 180 degree turns and such do help. But more and more operators are requiring an instrument rating, even utility operators. Many of the EMS accidents that had pilot lose of visibility as a cause, usually were caused by lack of recent currency. Many EMS operators now build an instrument currency program into their program.

 

As for equipping all helicopters of instrument flight, some do. Enstroms come with an attitude gyro as standard equipment.

Edited October 15, 2009 by rick1128

[r22butters]

What about those new glass cockpits for the R22/R44? Are they any good for IFR, and are they at all cost effective?

[Inferno]

Initial cost is high (~50k), but they are amazing. Simply amazing.

 

As far as how good they are in IFR, it doesn't really matter. Its the same info. If you know how to use it well, it could come in handy, but a good IFR pilot who is used to analog displays would be fed if he was thrown into it.

What about those new glass cockpits for the R22/R44? Are they any good for IFR, and are they at all cost effective?

[Pohi]

Yes, keep in mind that there are two things that are required to take a helicopter into IMC.

 

The first thing is having a helicopter that is certified for IMC. This isn't instruments. Like what was posted before, there are many mechanical things that need to be added to the helicopter, a basic helicopter is made to have a pilots hands on the controls at all times. This is why it is stated in the PTS for instrument helicopter checkride that the inspector or examiner may act as autopilot during the flight.

 

Second, is to have the proper and current instruments.

 

So buying a glass cockpit looks great, but that will not let a helicopter fly into IMC.

 

Hope this helps.

 

EDIT:

 

Here is the link to the faa website that lists all of the requirements for a helicopter to be certified for IFR

 

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...media/CH-07.pdf

Edited October 16, 2009 by Pohi

[nikon858]

it is not merely an instrument package needed to make a helicopter IFR certified. Most every helicopter would require some sort of stability augmentation system due to the inherent instability of the helicopter and testing that shows most pilots (even IFR rated) will lose control of a helicopter in IMC within 2 minutes.

You can add the instruments and make the helicopter able to "practice" IFR training really easy and that doesn't add much cost at all.... basic IFR instruments would maybe add $2-3k to the new price of a helicopter.

 

 

sorry, but I have to chime in on that....a garmin 430 is 10k+ so 2-3k is a little off.

 

And to the OP it is possible, however difficult, to keep the aircraft level using the compass/altimeter/Airspeed indicator.

[PhotoFlyer]

sorry, but I have to chime in on that....a garmin 430 is 10k+ so 2-3k is a little off.

 

And to the OP it is possible, however difficult, to keep the aircraft level using the compass/altimeter/Airspeed indicator.

 

True, a 430 is 10k+, but you don't NEED a 430 to fly IFR. All you really need is a VOR or ADF. Having a GPS is nice (so is an HSI) but you don't need GPS.

[nikon858]

ok well I was trying to prove a simple point...it's very expensive....but here's a little more fuel.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Attitude-In...9QQcmdZViewItem

 

NONE of these instruments are cheap....TOT gauge went bad on a ranger I fly....core charge for the instrument was 14k and minimal 1k for a rebuild....your probably in the neighborhood of 20-30k just for an instrument trainer.

[apiaguy]

Nikon... you have no idea what you're talking about. If a manufacturer added REQUIRED IFR instrumentation to an already VFR helicopter it would be very inexpensive. I could add used components to my helicopter for under $1000.

[HelliBoy]

TOT gauge went bad on a ranger I fly....core charge for the instrument was 14k and minimal 1k for a rebuild....your probably in the neighborhood of 20-30k just for an instrument trainer.

 

Holy Crap! Where are you getting repairs done?! PHP?? Ripoff city. MASCO fixed my dead TOT gauge this spring for $300. Good as new.

 

Back on topic; Butters, just becuase your R22 trainner doesnt have anything resembling intruments for IMC doesnt mean you will never need them. I've flown very few turbine machines without at least a basic attitude awareness package and AI.

 

Instead of looking for us to validate your opinion that you dont need an IR, look at the job postings and see for your self where your career is headed without it. I have several freinds who trained in the 80s and 90s with thousands of hours who had to shell out for an IR to keep their jobs. The simple fact is an IR makes you a sefer, better, more knowledgeable, and more employable pilot. You might think you already are those things but you arent the one that needs to be convinced.

[nikon858]

Nikon... you have no idea what you're talking about. If a manufacturer added REQUIRED IFR instrumentation to an already VFR helicopter it would be very inexpensive. I could add used components to my helicopter for under $1000.

 

your initial post you were talking new, now your saying used and that I don't know what I'm talking about......whatever, it really doesn't matter.

 

 

As for the TOT gauge....couldn't tell ya where he got it fixed at...but 1k for an overhaul was the cheapest found, others wanted 3k before the even looked at it.

[JumpPilot]

Money. Pure and simple. It costs too much to equip all helicopters for IFR. It requires an additional generator, at least SAS if not full autopilot, and lots of other equipment. Equipping an R22 for IFR would come close to doubling the cost, maybe more.

Doubt you'll see the glass R22 doing any hover autos either - those panels are expensive and crack pretty easily...and there's another side as well if we're talking about an R22 - W&B...hard to do a long XC when you can only carry enough fuel for 60 minutes plus reserve with a heavy student.

[helonorth]

OK, the poll is in, and it seems that about 99% of you believe that without the Instrument Rating even the stricktest of VFR pilots is doomed to die one day from loss of visability.

 

And since none of you thinks that my idea for VFR Commercial pilots to, (instead of an IR), make IFR emergencies part of their recurrent training to prepare for IIMC, is a good one, my question is this:

 

Why then are all helicopters not IFR equiped? What good is the rating, if your ship doesn't have what you need to use it? How else are we supposed to keep it level, the compass?,...ya right!

 

Forgive me if this seems to be harping up the same tree again, but these are the things that pop up into my head, as I spend my days standing in front of sizzeling, dead meat (at least I think its meat) , while my license sits in my wallet collecting dust.

I think it's actually a pretty good idea. Train for the emergency but the full IR is useless to most

of us. That is the point lost on most of the posters.

Edited October 16, 2009 by helonorth

[1HeliCFI]

I would definitely have at least a AI installed in any 22 ship I bought, and would go full IFR trainer on the 44. I survived an IMC experience in a 22 without an AI and WISHED I had one. By far the scariest thing I have ever done. I raised my personal WX minimums after that one. As for the instrument rating, more jobs are requiring it every day. Strangely the FAA just lowered the required instrument training hours required to get your heli com from 10 to 5.

[Wally]

My opinions, in the order you've asked this time-

IFR Emergency training for VFR pilots is what? A 180? Some will say the turn is a mistake (Air Methods, for example). My employer's book answer for IIMC is a straight ahead climb to MSA... Anyhow, what if the proposed turn doesn't return you to VFR, then what? Start descent hoping to establish VMC? (Same as 'go ahead and crash' if you're not lucky.) Accept a climb and remaining IMC, even if you're not capable? Not to mention that your proposal could create the illusion that it's an answer to the problem, and it's not.

Not to say that a judicious 180 hasn't worked for me at least 99% of the time, prior to my present employer. It has, and it would still be my first choice when the weather is trending below what I will accept. And that's the real answer- do something while it's still VFR and resolve the issue. What happens when there's no where to land that's not a ditching scenario? That is, you'll survive, but you're going to break something... That's where pilots get IIMC big time.

 

 

Next, what is "IFR equipped"? Attitude indicator, turn and bank, nav radio w/ILS? Or, are you talking about something more extensive, our standard single airframe have dual GPS/NAV, HSI, but no redundant electrical or autopilot. Or complete IFR kit excepting certification?

The safety problem isn't the airframe fit-out, it's a human factors issue almost universally- single and twin, VFR and IFR kits, more heavily nights in EMS, but still, as in the industry as a whole- pilot error, day and nights. The aircraft isn't the answer, but it can be part of the problem, and you're right that more equipment can be helpful. Almost everything I've flown in the last 25 years has at least an attitude indicator and navcom. I would say all aircraft had AI, NAV/Com, except some operators allowed dispatch with inop components.

My opinion is still that the IFR training, especially for a new pilot, provides more bang for the training and knowledge buck.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Wally

[Waldorf]

Wally your right. the more training the better. The Instrument time will make you a much safer pilot. That is why the insurance requires the rating for most jobs. It sounds to me the people who disagree are people who know nothing about instrument flying. You never know when the weather is going to change. You dont need to fly IMC with a R-22, but the training will give you the know how to make it through accidental enter into IMC. I thought the instrument traing was great. The instrument rating makes you a complete Pilot.