ethics or laws for lowfly?

[plznolowfly]

hi, some friends of mine just purchased a home in north malibu on bluffs overlooking the ocean. i felt it a bit hard to feel sorry for them when it seems all i would hear were complaints of low helicopter flybys all day long. so, it wasn't until i actually visited them that i understood why they would be upset (especially after having spent so much money).

 

what i saw was, at least 2 or 3 helicopters every hour, but the majority actually weren't bad (at least 500ft above or away). it was the few that flew like, imo, jerks that really did spoil things. my interpretation of jerk in this sense were pilots that were flying so slow and close to the bluffs you could see passengers faces... no more than 75 ft from the house, maybe 30-50ft from the bluff and at eye level or below (bluffs are at most 100ft high). it was loud, was weird as all the passengers are staring, and close enough to throw a rock (not even very hard) and hit it. they're not flying over open ocean, but over beach/shallows area. the worst ones are the ones that are doing what feels like kamikaze flying below the bluff level at 50ft above the beach/shallows and about 25-30ft from the bluff hugging the cliffs fighter pilot style going very very fast.

 

i'm not expecting much sympathy from this board, but i know you would be the ones that would be the most informed, and i'm just wondering if that type of flying is even legal. are there any ethics or laws that pilots need to abide by when flying over areas like these? what can a person do if there are laws being broken?

 

thanks for any input you can give.

[Eggbeater]

If they are flying as close as you are saying, you record the tail number and make a complaint either to the company (look up the tail number online) or to the FAA. It's often the few bad apples that spoil it for the rest...

[Gunner]

hi, some friends of mine just purchased a home in north malibu on bluffs overlooking the ocean. i felt it a bit hard to feel sorry for them when it seems all i would hear were complaints of low helicopter flybys all day long. so, it wasn't until i actually visited them that i understood why they would be upset (especially after having spent so much money).

 

what i saw was, at least 2 or 3 helicopters every hour, but the majority actually weren't bad (at least 500ft above or away). it was the few that flew like, imo, jerks that really did spoil things. my interpretation of jerk in this sense were pilots that were flying so slow and close to the bluffs you could see passengers faces... no more than 75 ft from the house, maybe 30-50ft from the bluff and at eye level or below (bluffs are at most 100ft high). it was loud, was weird as all the passengers are staring, and close enough to throw a rock (not even very hard) and hit it. they're not flying over open ocean, but over beach/shallows area. the worst ones are the ones that are doing what feels like kamikaze flying below the bluff level at 50ft above the beach/shallows and about 25-30ft from the bluff hugging the cliffs fighter pilot style going very very fast.

 

i'm not expecting much sympathy from this board, but i know you would be the ones that would be the most informed, and i'm just wondering if that type of flying is even legal. are there any ethics or laws that pilots need to abide by when flying over areas like these? what can a person do if there are laws being broken?

 

thanks for any input you can give.

 

Sounds exacly like the people who move next door to an airport that has been there for 50 years and then complain about the noise...

[Rick McWilliams]

I fly along the coast often. I try not to make much noise, but sometimes a gentle descent results in loud blade slapping. I am usually at 500 ft. The normal afternoon breeze encourages operation closer to houses as an autorotation will need a 90 degree turn toward the wind. I do not like the idea of a water landing much beyond the surf line.

 

You must visit on very popular days. I rarely encounter another helicopter along the coast near malibu. It could be worse; near Marina del Rey air traffic control asks helicopters to remain below 150 feet.

 

The real solution for your friend is to learn to fly helicopters. Then helicopters are much more interesting and less annoying.

[67november]

The real solution for your friend is to learn to fly helicopters. Then helicopters are much more interesting and less annoying.

 

yip

if you can't beat'em, join'em

[r22butters]

By law, we are not allowed to fly at an altitude that posses a hazard to persons or property on the surface. You could take down their tail number, and complain to the local FAA office using that reg, I think its FAR 91.119(d).

[Inferno]

@ butters

 

Except that they aren't posing a risk to persons or property on the ground. It's not illegal.

 

@OP

 

Sorry to hear they're having a problem. They could complain, but legally there is nothing they can do. A helicopter could fly 1 foot above the water at 90 kts, and as long as they don't overfly people on the ground in a way as to cause potential risk or harm, there is nothing illegal about it.

 

BTW, what part of malibu is it? I used to live on Latigo Canyon. I never remember choppers going by that often. I would see 1 a day or so.

[delorean]

By law, we are not allowed to fly at an altitude that posses a hazard to persons or property on the surface. You could take down their tail number, and complain to the local FAA office using that reg, I think its FAR 91.119(d).

 

How are they posing a hazard to the persons and property?

 

To the OP......

 

Don't call the FAA. That's like calling the cops when the neighbor's stereo is loud or their dog is on your property. It's going to put the pilot on the defense.

 

Best thing to do, write down the N-number and the exact time/date they flew by. Search it on the FAA's website and try to make contact with the operator. If it belongs to a flight school or private owner, just give them a call, be nice, do not threaten, and ask them to stop.

 

We used to get a call or two a month from people since the flight school's name was on the side. It was no big deal, we would just spread a memo amoungst the pilots to avoid that certain house or property when out practicing. We're not out to piss you off, but if if you try to get someone in trouble, they might get ticked and traffic could increase.

 

If it's registered to some bogus holding company in Delaware, you might need to call the FAA. But again, just make a request (not complaint!) to the inspector. He'll get ahold of the operator or pilot and let them know you are concerned, and more importantly, they are NOT investingating any wrongdoing.

 

If it keeps up, get some pictures or videos with something in the foreground to gauge distance and height. Again, call the operator again and tell them if it doesn't stop you're going to the FAA with the video/images.

 

The airport we were at got about 2000 noise complaints a year from the surrounding NEW neighborhoods. The stats showed that over 90% came from 10 households, and about 70% came from 5 houses. Mapped out, these 10 people were in 10 different neighborhoods and they were the only houses in their neighbor ever to file a complaint. So those never went anywhere because it was obvious they were out cause trouble.

[C of G]

They could complain, but legally there is nothing they can do. A helicopter could fly 1 foot above the water at 90 kts, and as long as they don't overfly people on the ground in a way as to cause potential risk or harm, there is nothing illegal about it.

 

Of course there is Careless and reckless (91.13).

 

I couldn't agree with Delorean more. Get the N number and call the owner. The distances described seem exaggerated. 30-75'? That is incredibly close.

 

As for the comparison to people living next to an airport, I feel that is a stretch too. Unless of course there is an airport near by. If it's just a place the helicopters frequent, there isn't a such a clear clue that there is a lot of air traffic to be expected.

Edited November 12, 2009 by C of G

[deerock]

I fly up and down the coast - Malibu included - a great deal. I rarely see anybody out there...weekends included. I think I saw 2 other 22's and a 44 on a busy holiday weekend...all at around 300-700 ft. or so. We are all usually about 300-1000 ft., and I'm usually a bit out past the beach, knowing I can get to the sand with an auto if needed. The only reason I would ever get down low is due to LAX ATC requesting below 150ft. for the coast transitions.

 

I do know that there are a lot of heli pilots out here that think they can overly impress their customers and hope for a tip....but again, I'm not seeing anybody fly that low, let alone that often.

I see more helis flying low over the Playboy mansion, Tom Cruise's house, Eddie Murphy's house, etc. and still not below 500 ft. AGL

 

I think that the person's complaint is greatly exaggerated, along with the altitudes mentioned. 75 ft. is a pretty ridiculous statement when you might not only see their faces but their shoe size too at that height. That is really low to a person on the ground. Really low.

 

Update: I have friends who live in Malibu and I just talked to them. They say that a few neighbors have noticed/talked about some helis out there but they don't fly by that often as mentioned. Not that much more than when they lived in Pasadena or Hollywood. They might notice a few on the weekend but they don't fly that low to see faces, etc. as noted earlier.

 

Although I respect the first complainant's opinion, I think the exaggeration is too much and should be taken in to consideration.

 

As far as "taking the N number and call the FAA", that is a silly answer. One certainly has the right to complain, so call the owners of the helis as noted by other posters, and you will get things done a lot faster that way. BUT, please don't exaggerate their altitudes to make your point...we are all highly trained, even as private pilots, and we don't screw around with altitudes cuz we need altitude for that ever possible Auto.

[Goldy]

So let's answer the original question. No, there is not a defined "minimum" altitude that helicopters should be flying at. Second, they could be 300 feet over the beach, but since your friends house is on a bluff 300 feet above the water, the helo's don't seem very high above that house.

 

The bluffs in Malibu are very steep, we would have to fly at 2000 feet or more to be 500 feet above every house. Also, fixed wing aircraft use that as a corridor, If I fly much higher I'll be in a mid air over your friends house. I've been at Malibu, 300 feet above the water, and had a fixed wing fly UNDER me along the coast.

 

In the event of an emergency, every pilot is thinking the same thing....heading for the beach.

 

If you ever really think it is a threat to someone's safety and you would like to talk to someone, send me a PM. I know just about every ship in the area and would be happy to make a call on your friends behalf.

The other source that you have is www.phpa.org

Go to the link for noise abatement. This L.A. organization will also make contact for you to try and get the pilot to be a better neighbor.

 

Goldy

[deerock]

good note about the FW's being lower altitudes. I've seen that a lot...most of 'em not on the radio too.

 

You should definitely take up Goldy's offer as this might help you more than anything previously mentioned.

[Guest pokey]

there is a fine line between being a "cowboy" and a pilot (we ALL know the type)