The Guardian Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Are avionics for helicopters approved separately from light general aviation aircraft? It seems like there are some nice units available that replace the standard "6 pack" steam gauges and these units seem much more reliable and affordable. Do units such as these: https://www.bendixking.com/apexedgeseries/index.html need to be approved specifically for helicopters if you wanted to install them? Seems like other than SAGEM, Chelton or Sandel, that there is very few options or no options for upgrading avionics in light helicopters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 In order to modify your helicopter or airplane you must do it by means of:1) factory modification FAA approved2) STC3) Field approval Most of those avionics manufacturers are doing the STC approvals so owners merely have to buy the equipment and install it and the FAA will be happy.Helicopters generally make up a very small portion of general aviation aircraft and are less likely to be sought for approval from the avionics mfg's due to the narrower market and lower cost payout. Also, helicopter issues... ie.. vibration...cause issues with the equipment and make certification a little tougher. Finally... why do you need a fancy digital display to fly VFR? The cost is high and the benefits low at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Excellent response from Apiaguy. The benefit I found when equiping/completing a new helicopter was the ease of reading information displayed. Also, for resale, upgraded or modern avionics has a reliability factor. Sagem designs PFDs & MFDs for helos. I had their ICDS-8 MFD in my EC120 and also had the Sandel EHSI. Both displayed information in a great way and reduced my work load and also gave me some degree of protection in the Sagem TOPS. The EC120 recently sold to Canadian Helicopters for their School in Penticton, BC. Along the ferry flight home from Florida, the pilot called me to say how he loved the Sagem display & Sandel both. Most new/glass avionics produced are set up for displays in airplanes. Be careful in selecting avionics for helos as to where the line selection keys are layed out. When sitting in right seat PIC position in a helo many airplane intended displays have the entry keys too far away to be practical. One benefit to new systems is the digital ADAHRS instead of the old spinning gyros. In my 407, I had to overhaul my King HSI gyro/flux valve unit 3 times in 10 years and my AI unit twice. The newer digital units are more reliable and require less /no maintenace. Many of you will be advancing to larger helos as your careers progress. At the Commercial/CFI certificate level, you can all fly a helicopter. The transition to being proficient in a new model requires your eyes to search for the data/information that you desire, i.e. Airspeed, Alt, Torque, TOT/T4 and such. Modern displays place a lot of this info grouped together in front of the PIC and make the searching/unfamiliar time much less during your transition. Weather, Terrain, Traffic plus ADAHRS in one or two locations plus reduced scan areas for IFR. Best to All, MikeMV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucksweet Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) This is a great discussion. I hope we can get a lot more thoughts. Yes, you can fly VFR without this equipment, but frankly I want every bit of safety I can get. I know some guys would say all the extra panel stuff keeps your head too focussed in the cockpit and not looking outside. I would argue that less instrument scanning allows me to look outside even more. - I have been flying a Turbine Enstrom for the last 18 months with a Chelton/Cobham system and one year ago I added a Garmin 696. At first I didn't see the value of the Chelton, but after owning it awhile I really came around. I love it. I am about to take delivery on a new (to me) Eurocopter EC 130 and I want to upgrade the panel as much as I can. It is frustrating that there are so few choices and they are very expensive. That being said, I am determined to make my new panel provide me as much safety and convenience as I can buy. I want traffic, weather, terrain, obstacles, the basic aviation "6-pack", a night camera/vision thing and XM radio <gr>…maybe even an autopilot. Chuck p.s. hi Mike! Edited December 17, 2009 by chucksweet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Hi Chuck! Let me know if I can help with info, advice or suggestions about equiping the EC130. I spent 6 months reading avionics equipment manuals between my 407 leaving and making up my mind for equipment in the EC120. Are you going to Heli Expo, HAI in Houston to see all the vendor displays? Be safe, MikeMV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucksweet Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Mike, I am going to HAI. I plan to ask a lot of questions. :-) I did just finish the Eurocopter EC 130 Ground School this week. Whew...I felt like I was drinking from a firehose...but I passed! Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guardian Posted December 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Thank you for the comments everybody. And while certainly you do not need the latest digital avionics to fly VFR, I certainly like the idea of at least having an option of a nice moving map with terrain info etc. nicely integrated in the panel as opposed to using suction cups and every other means of mounting the latest portable GPS type units. As a side note I guess Aspen Avionics is getting their PFD STC'd for the Jetranger and A-Star at a price point of 15K and I came across this A-Star with a Garmin G600, but can not find an STC on record on the FAA website. It's reg # is N34S. It's a 2008, is that installed at the factory at time of purchase and therefore does not need a STC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucksweet Posted December 20, 2009 Report Share Posted December 20, 2009 Wow, that is awesome, a G600 in an aStar. I'd put a G600 (or G500) in the EC 130 if I could figure out how to get it done. I have written Aspen a couple of times and I get an automated, form email back from them saying they will contact me when they know more to tell me....argh. It looks pretty neat, and very affordable...although it costs more than $15K when you put weather and everything else in it. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guardian Posted December 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 Chuck Did you see the pics of the Dale County, AL Sheriffs Office OH-58 on the Aspen site. http://www.aspenavionics.com/index.php/cus...gallery/n268dc/ I had seen a press release for the 1000MFD Helicopter Version listed as 15K but certainly when you add the MFD which I had not heard about then I could definitely see a system costing 30K and up..... Also are Public Use helo's not held to the same standard as civilian use when it comes to equipment add-on's? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucksweet Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 I did see the Alabama Sheriff one...that is why I contacted them. I assume that is the one that is helping them get their STC. I think 2 of the Aspens and a Garmin 696 would be really sweet in a helicopter. On the other hand the Garmin G600 (or 500) with the synthetic vision would be awesome, too. I have no idea about public use vs private use..I would think the requirements would be the same. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETTSET99 Posted December 21, 2009 Report Share Posted December 21, 2009 You can install any avionics you want but if you get in a accident your insurance can not cover you if the unit is unapproved!!! For the Ec120 I would only go with Sagem remember the single sagem unit can display pfd or mfd info,Eurocopter will have the units standard in a few years and Sagem also makes the autopilot for the EC120, the aspen is nice for your 206, 500E but not the quality that the Ec120 deserves!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted December 22, 2009 Report Share Posted December 22, 2009 OH-58's are not 206's... public vs private...If you own a type-certified aircraft, you must maintain it that way or it cannot remain on a "standard" category airworthiness certificate. A sheriff or the military or other "public-use" aircraft do not have to maintain their aircraft at all if they don't want... the faa has no regulation over them and the aircraft do not have "airworthiness certificates". Because of this, they can put any avionics in them they want to. It could be their laptop running their own homemade sensors..... same goes for experimental category aircraft. The OH-58 is not type certified and has no civilian counterpart... it just happens to look like and have alot of similar parts to a 206. Depending on your FSDO you might get an installation of a G600 thru a field approval and that is most likely how the astar accomplished it... it will probabally have restrictions such as "not approved for IFR flight" or "VFR use only"... just wait a little while longer and those company's will get their STC's for you. maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guardian Posted February 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 As an update to this thread, I'm sure many of you may have seen the press release from Garmin on their new Helicopter specific products: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=289 Look like the first STC's will be for Bell 206, 407 and Eurocopter EC130's according to: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/garminr-a...nk=MW_news_stmp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucksweet Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 As an update to this thread, I'm sure many of you may have seen the press release from Garmin on their new Helicopter specific products: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=289 Look like the first STC's will be for Bell 206, 407 and Eurocopter EC130's according to: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/garminr-a...nk=MW_news_stmp Wow, that is pretty cool. I had not seen it announced, so thanks for the link. I'll look forward to seeing it at HAI. I am so anxious to put something like this in my EC 130. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeloJunkie Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 Wow, that is pretty cool. I had not seen it announced, so thanks for the link. I'll look forward to seeing it at HAI. I am so anxious to put something like this in my EC 130. Chuck I am currently working with several shops on designs and quotes to install the G500H into my MD500 using a Field Approval process. Having gone through the field approval process on modifications to my R44, I can tell you that it was not the hell I was led to believe it would be when I started. Find a good shop who has a good relationship with your local FSDO and it helps a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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