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Professional Helicopter Instructors Making $200/Hour


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ROFL

I think charging $115 for a dance instructor and charging $200 an hour for ricky bad ass super pilot comes down to finding the right people to screw.

 

Times up, lets do this. I just made the call to my student to have $200 for tomorrows ground lesson. LLEEEEEEEEROOOOY nnnnnnJENKINS style. This forum is all talk. Lets see action.

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I think charging $115 for a dance instructor and charging $200 an hour for ricky bad ass super pilot comes down to finding the right people to screw.

 

Times up, lets do this. I just made the call to my student to have $200 for tomorrows ground lesson. LLEEEEEEEEROOOOY nnnnnnJENKINS style. This forum is all talk. Lets see action.

 

 

Love the Leroy Jenkins reference. Nicely done.

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I'de vote for $200 per hour, but? Only if that instructor would bring his ship to me for maintenance & i could raise my shop rate to $300 per hour----sounds fair to me :P

 

I figure we could then rent out my 300 for thousand buckaroos an hour & just about break even :o

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Is this a joke? Let the market decide what instructors are worth. Flying is fun, so people are willing to do it cheap. Deal with it, or get into another industry. There are well paying jobs out there, it just takes time and dedication to get there. Instructors aren't worth anywhere near $200 an hour (I know, I am one). It's not that hard of a job, and there are a lot of people all wanting to instruct for peanuts, so that's what instructors will make. Like I said, if you don't like it, do something else.

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I didn't read all the pages, but as to the original idea: no thanks. The market determines prices. I am a student, but I can barely afford it. If it were any more, I couldn't do it.

 

Go read them all, then respond. And if you are student who plans to become a professional, your thinking is very short sighted.

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Is this a joke?

 

Instructors aren't worth anywhere near $200 an hour (I know, I am one).

 

 

you are missing the point, this post was started by an instructor that IS making $200 per hour & as i see it? He's trying to show YOU how to do it too. (besides allowing me to raise my shop rate to $300 also) :D

 

(psst? on the sly--i suggest you get a list of all of his students & recruit them for your services @ a reduced rate of say? $175 per hour?) [my cut for the idea? how about free lunch every other tuesday?] ;) AND? a free $500 oil & filter change B)

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This thread has proven to me that there is simply not enough desire in the ranks of helicopter pilots to warrant me working to help them. The majority of responses are people who can not grasp the idea of a professional helicopter pilot. They would rather remain hobbyists who make crap wages.

 

That is fine with me. I won't spend any more of my time to try and help you.

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Wow,

 

i was excited to see the interest in this topic, one night there were 18 people reading it at the same time, i hadn't seen that for a while.

 

I am disappointed tho, even with some on the forum that i had grown to respect. I asked you in the beginning to not focus on the $$ mark, but the concept of raising the bar in all areas for the good of all involved. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you just caught a few of the posts and haven't taken the time to read them all nor think this stuff thru. There are some serious issues with the way things have been done in this industry in the past, and part of the reason is because people can't, or don't want to, look at the big picture, or they see glimpses of it and give up because it's just too daunting. Seeing people pick a focus to ridicule instead of trying to find solutions almost puts me in that last category.

 

RMP's thoughts on the sad hourly rate paid to instructors is right on. But this is just a small part of what is eating away at the flight training side of our industry and nothing will change unless we get positive and focus on solutions. The only way we can fix some of this stuff is to get it out there, discuss it and believe we can make a difference. If you don't believe we can fix things, or don't want to be a part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

 

dp

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If pilots demanded more pay, then it would make it economically feasible and desirable for companies to pay for your time building. This is exactly like an Intern. No experience yet, so you work with us and under our guidance until you can go it alone. Many other industries do this because they want loyal people who will stay with their company for years to come. We can make this happen in aviation as well. In fact, it used to be this way. Airlines you to train pilots from scratch. Then they figured that the pilots would pay for it themselves, so they stopped the program.

 

Here is the point that you're missing entirely

 

Companies WILL NOT pay a pilot $200/hr, as they are bidding on jobs and submitting contracts based on the current average pilot pay, with many of the bids and contracts being awarded because of additional perks that the bidding company includes into thier proposal.

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Funny, RMP and i have not spoken since this string started. But we posted similar comments at about the same time.

 

This is part of why our industry is in the shape it's in. People just can't believe that we can make it better... it's very difficult, especially when people you look up to and respect have already thrown the towel in. Do i blame them? No, as i said, it's difficult and daunting, and overwhelming when you look at the whole picture. Do i think we can change things for the better?? Absolutely, but not all at once.. so we have to start somewhere, and i think this forum is one of the perfect places.

 

I heard this a long time ago and it's always served me when i thought things would eat me alive: "yard by yard it may be hard, but inch by inch it's always a cinch"

 

dp

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Of all the things Silver State did wrong, they payed their instructors fairly well. At the top level of experience, they made 25 dollars an hour for flight and 20 for ground. Most of those instructors were making 52K a year plus. That's the entry level job in this industry making 52K. Is that really that bad?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am all for increasing wages across the board within our industry, but you can't price yourselves out of a job and I'm sorry, but the majority of students are not going to be able to afford 100 dollar an hour instructors.

 

If you really want to make a lot of money flying helicopters, there are opportunities to do so, but instruction never has been the top of the heap when it comes to wages. If people did their research before getting into this sector of the industry, they shouldn't be surprised at the level of pay.

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Funny, RMP and i have not spoken since this string started. But we posted similar comments at about the same time.

 

This is part of why our industry is in the shape it's in. People just can't believe that we can make it better... it's very difficult, especially when people you look up to and respect have already thrown the towel in. Do i blame them? No, as i said, it's difficult and daunting, and overwhelming when you look at the whole picture. Do i think we can change things for the better?? Absolutely, but not all at once.. so we have to start somewhere, and i think this forum is one of the perfect places.

 

I heard this a long time ago and it's always served me when i thought things would eat me alive: "yard by yard it may be hard, but inch by inch it's always a cinch"

 

What's the average pay rate across the board for instructors? 20 dollars?

 

The problem isn't that people don't believe we can make it better. The problem is people see figures like 100, 150, 200 dollars an hour and it's ridiculous.

 

Your last quote covers things pretty well actually. Increasing average instructor pay to 100 plus dollars an hour is definitely exceeding inch by inch. It's more like football field by football field. Increasing pay a few dollars an hour, maybe 5 or 10 is more inch by inch.

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hey ya'll going RAH RAH for the home team, where were ya'll TWO YEARS AGO ? - LINK (one of many possible) - like I said not a new idea, just new heroes for the day.

 

Like AD said I think we're all on board with the ideals, but that bus has a LOT of stops before it gets to $200/hr town. When ya'll can recognize that, then maybe we can move forward. ;)

Edited by Rogue
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OUCH!! :-) tough crowd.. you kinda exhaust this old fart..

 

where was i two years ago? reading you folk's posts and thinking that i would like to be involved with people that wanted to do the best for their industry..

 

in my first or second post i said that i realized that many of you had been thinking the same things in the past..

 

what is the average pay for instructors? $20 to $25. one of the things we did early on was to solve that issue if at least for the time being at our school. Our competitor charges $55 per hour for the instructor and keeps $30 of that. We charge $45 and only take $10 (our low time instructor has over 500 hours and we have a break at that point, if we had one that had under 500 we would take $15), our instructors that have over 750 hours make the whole $45, that is we don't take any thing. Our price for ground is $35 (our competitors price is still $55), the low time instructor still get's $25 (under 500 hours), but the rest of the team keeps it all....Are we making $$? NO, but we didn't expect to as it IS flight training.. We hope to raise that as time goes on and we fly more hours.. but that is just a short time fix and not the best in the world at that.

 

i have asked you guys to not focus on the $200 hour mark but on the problem as a whole, there are some really smart people here and the more we work together the better chance we have of making a difference. If you knew me you'd know that i see nothing in this for me except making it better for everyone (well, not everyone, the operators that are stealing money and time and futures from kids are not on that list), i would have much rather seen:

 

dp, "we feel your pain, we have had this discussion many times and would like to see things change as well..... here are some of our solutions.."

 

just to help things move forward, how about we change the $200 to $50, maybe that will help everyone focus on the bigger picture?? inch by inch..

 

dp

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Instructors aren't worth anywhere near $200 an hour (I know, I am one). It's not that hard of a job, and there are a lot of people all wanting to instruct for peanuts

This is the mindset we are trying to change. If you feel this way, you should not be instructing. I for one would not have you as an instructor because of your attitude and lack of professionalism. To spend the money we do to become a CFII and then to degrade yourself is the whole reason for this discussion. To change for the better. You have to start somewhere, and if the pay bracket is where we start then so be it. Lets stop working for peanuts and be professional helicopter pilots and make some changes for the better. Lets start are pay at $65hr and change our mindset from not worthy because we are at the bottom to we are worthy because we are professionals.

 

Steve

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I have a question???

If instructing is not that hard of a job, then why is it that hardly anyone trying to become a helicopter pilot becomes a pilot at the mins. A PPLH min is 40hrs. About 95% of all students get their certificate between 60-80hrs? Yeah it is easy for some but it is hard for most. If Doctors and lawyers spend lots of time and money for school, why is it that they make so much more when they start out at the bottom just like a CFI, but yet the CFI makes so little? Yeah the helicopter is expensive to operate but so is my time to teach!!

 

Steve

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I have a question???

If instructing is not that hard of a job, then why is it that hardly anyone trying to become a helicopter pilot becomes a pilot at the mins. A PPLH min is 40hrs. About 95% of all students get their certificate between 60-80hrs?

 

Steve

 

 

<<Dials Oklahoma & requests FAA to raise minimums

 

 

:D :P :o

 

Reminds me of that Archie Bunker episode when Gloria said "but daddy ! guns kill people !"

 

Archie's reply "would it make ya feel any better little goil if they wuz pushed outtah a windah?"

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DP - didn't mean for that to hurt :) , I'm not always the best at articulating my thoughts. I don't doubt your sincerity. I'm not against a high number I just don't believe it to be the first and only step.

 

RE: teaching in MINS - the instructor to whom I pay a premium for said " I'd be really worried about taking lessons from someone who COULDN'T teach you in the minimum amount of time. "

Edited by Rogue
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. If Doctors and lawyers spend lots of time and money for school, why is it that they make so much more when they start out at the bottom just like a CFI, but yet the CFI makes so little? Yeah the helicopter is expensive to operate but so is my time to teach!!

 

Steve

 

i guess you should have become a Dr OR lawyer then? again my Archie episode to you

 

 

<gets out violin

 

4 years of college & then another how many ? 4-8 in med/law school---so a CFI is the same? hmmmmmm :o

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Alright, lets look at reality. Instructor pay has increased in the past few years. So has pay across the board for most jobs.

 

Let's look at Air Logistics, who were given quite a generous raise during their last negotiations. Top pay at Air Log for an IFR Captain is $118,506.00. That's a guy who has been working there for 25+ years. If we take the number of hours worked during the year for a 7/7 or 14/14 pilot, it's 2184 hours @ 12 hours a day. Divide 118,506 by 2184 and we get an average of $54.00 an hour. If you want to get technical and figure in vacation time off, 28 days off a year with 21 plus years. We divide 118,506 by 1848 hours and we get $64.12 an hour.

 

So a flight instructor is as valuable as a 25 year IFR captain?

 

If you're not working a 40 hour week as an instructor, that's not the fault of your hourly rate, that's your schools fault for hiring too many instructors in the first place. Why should the students have to pay more? So you can get away with working less?

 

Pay will increase across the industry as it gets more difficult to find qualified pilots. There has been a large influx of new commercial pilots in the last several years, thanks in large part to super big flight schools and new recruiting tactics for students. That fact isn't helping to increase pay.

 

The best thing you could realistically do to increase pay in this industry is to stop training new pilots! Supply and demand is a powerful thing. As the older guys 401Ks recover and they reach retirement age, things will probably improve, but it's not going to be overnight and it's not going to happen by forming an "organization" to increase pay.

 

If you're able to find students misinformed enough to pay $200.00 per hour for instruction, that's great for you.

 

Our competitor charges $55 per hour for the instructor and keeps $30 of that. We charge $45 and only take $10 (our low time instructor has over 500 hours and we have a break at that point, if we had one that had under 500 we would take $15), our instructors that have over 750 hours make the whole $45, that is we don't take any thing. Our price for ground is $35 (our competitors price is still $55), the low time instructor still get's $25 (under 500 hours), but the rest of the team keeps it all....Are we making $$? NO, but we didn't expect to as it IS flight training.

 

Right here a flight school is paying 45/hour and admits to not making money. We don't make anything is exactly what he said. Little private instructors may be able to get away with this, but I don't believe it's realistic to expect flight schools to price themselves out of students.

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I have a question???

If instructing is not that hard of a job, then why is it that hardly anyone trying to become a helicopter pilot becomes a pilot at the mins. A PPLH min is 40hrs. About 95% of all students get their certificate between 60-80hrs? Yeah it is easy for some but it is hard for most. If Doctors and lawyers spend lots of time and money for school, why is it that they make so much more when they start out at the bottom just like a CFI, but yet the CFI makes so little? Yeah the helicopter is expensive to operate but so is my time to teach!!

 

Steve

 

You can't compare Doctors to helicopter pilots...not even close! One spends 8-10 YEARS in schools and training and spends hundreds of thousands of dollars. The other spends 6-12 MONTHS in training and spends around $50k...

 

The problem with paying instructors $100-200/hr is what will you pay the commercial pilot? $500/hr? You really think the cash strapped police/sheriff depts, USFS, EMS, etc... can afford that? The last sheriff flying job I saw was $25 or so an hour...and you had to be POST certified already...

 

Its a business folks, no price fixing will help anyone but a select few. And I don't want another Government bureaucrat dictating pay for an entire industry. Because you KNOW that if the Gubermints "Pay Czar" gets involved we will all be making much LESS!

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If Doctors and lawyers spend lots of time and money for school, why is it that they make so much more when they start out at the bottom just like a CFI, but yet the CFI makes so little?

 

Medical students graduate with nearly $126,000 in debt, but earn an average $113,000 a year as doctors

 

Read more: Sometimes Grad School Can Be a Big Financial Mistake at SmartMoney.com http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance.../#ixzz0d4r87sfP

 

Doctors also have 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of medical school, 6 years of residency during which they get paid generally between 46,000 and 56,000 a year.

 

There are exceptions to everything. There are heart surgeons making millions a year. That is not the norm.

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Pokey,

If the FAA raised their mins then it would seem as though it were easy, and you know the answer to that. Changing the mins won't change anything. But everyone knows it is easy to fly planes but it takes hard work, concentration, and dedication to fly helicopters and be professional. I'm not trying to say it is not hard to fly planes, but a plane will fly itself, you are there to monitor the systems and make slight inputs. As the saying goes "You are only as good as your last landing!"

Now back to the main subject.

We all as professionals here need to see the bigger picture. We all need to make a change for the better. We all need to be recognized as Professional Helicopter Pilots in the helicopter industry just as the Professional Airplane Pilots are recognized as Professionals in the airplane industry. If we could change the mindset that we are professional then maybe we can change to be treated as professionals and therefore change all for the better including our pay! Open your mind to all the possibilities. Don't stop short and take low pay and be degraded just because you feel you are not worth the time and money. Be the Profeesional Helicopter Pilot that you trained to be.

 

Steve

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If you're able to find students misinformed enough to pay $200.00 per hour for instruction, that's great for you.

 

yea really, I already thought $35 per was a bargain for a retired WO with 14,000 hours and an ATP - guess I need to start paying him more.

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