Professional Helicopter Instructors Making $200/Hour

[Guest pokey]

Pokey,

If the FAA raised their mins then it would seem as though it were easy, and you know the answer to that. Changing the mins won't change anything. But everyone knows it is easy to fly planes but it takes hard work, concentration, and dedication to fly helicopters and be professional. Steve

 

 

no Steve, i dont have a clue as to the answer if the FAA changed the minimums-----( my guess is it wouldnt make a difference?- but then? why did you bring it up?) and BTW it was a joke

 

I fly airplanes and helicopters--i never found one particularly more difficult--altho? i think that the helicopter is more of a "strap it on" rather than a machine to "climb into" I have flown alot of aerobatics in airplanes too-- that "almost" compares to helicopter (in a different way)

[yzchopper]

You can't compare Doctors to helicopter pilots...not even close! One spends 8-10 YEARS in schools and training and spends hundreds of thousands of dollars. The other spends 6-12 MONTHS in training and spends around $50k...

 

Does going to school longer make you more professional? If it took me 8-10yrs I would still be paid less than $25/yr and still would not be considered as a professional! Of course I would look like a complete idiot so maybe I would deserve the lower pay... We need to stop degrading ourselves. O P E N Y O U R E Y E S and see the bigger picture. The pay of $200/hr for the instructor was/is an example and a place to start to make the helicopter industry a better place to work. Why is it so hard for people to want to make a change for the better? Are we so afraid of change that we are willing to accept low pay and being degraded? Are we as helicopter pilots not worthy enough for change for the better? Why????? It is an uphill battle. Lets make the helicopter industry better, not just ok or good but great. Do you not feel that risking your life and the lives of others everyday that the rotors are turning is worthy enough for better pay? Pilots seem to forget that anything can go wrong at anytime and you and your passenger (client, or customer) can be killed, along with anyone on the ground. You go to the grave the Professional highly paid doctor says oops while the patient is now permanetly disabled or dead and he/she (the doctor) goes home after screwing up. We as trained professionals deserve better.

[yzchopper]

Pokey,

I understand it was a joke. Why do you think I responded the way I did. Sorry dry humor.

[Sparker]

Go read them all, then respond. And if you are student who plans to become a professional, your thinking is very short sighted.

 

Welcome to the internet.

[captkirkyota]

I have long thought it would be a great idea to try and get the oil industry and others maybe? To try and hire a low timer fresh out of school person for say 40k WITH a signed agreement that as long as you would promise to stay for a minimum amount of time, the company would pay your monthly loan payment plus say like 5%.You of course are teamed up with a pilot for a while to satisfy insurance accident statistics so as to keep insurance mins down in both cost and min hours PIC required. The lower than current entry pay is because they are making your monthly payment, but your still making enough to live and if your able, you live below your means so YOU can also pay more toward your principle and get out of debt in just a few years rather 10 or more.

IF you left before the agreed terms you would then have to pay them back for the amount they paid into your loan. Trucking companies do this all the time, you sign on with Steven's transport in Dallas Tx. they will pay for your entire schooling if you fulfill their time agreement so they can recoup from you what it is they invested in you. I think this would be one way in which you could keep the instructor market less flooded with low time pilots, could then make it possible for higher priced loans to be taken out for the subsequent higher pay to be given to higher time pilots who would want to teach 5 days a week and be home everyday and leave the 7/7 or 14/14 world behind for a more stable lifestyle, thus opening more positions for the low timers to enter into the above mentioned contract agreement, then everyone gets paid more, loans are more secure, higher time pilots are training, producing better pilots, who then go out and get trained in an environment that DOES help them develop better decision making abilities because they have guidance from someone for the first year, who eventually will move on into higher hours required work and so on and so forth. Is that a faultless idea?, no, I'm sure as with any plan one can poke holes in it, but as stated before ideas getting one going in the right direction at the least will be tweaked and what not so that it does become the better model than the one that currently has a ton of shortcomings a well.

I know DP has recently entered into talks with companies with a very similar idea as the one I described, it is one that I wished when I first entered training in 07 had been available because I would have gone that route rather than the one I'm on now, which is being a CFII who is not flying for living, looking for work flying, and considering going back to car hauling and saving up for my own experimental and flying for fun for a while until maybe I have enough hours to fly for a living, cuz what the market looks like now, and the way it appears will be for a while is not blowing my skirt up.

Feel free to flame me for all the things I failed to think about, but like I said and others too, ideas that get you facing in the right direction to then at least fill in the holes are better than no ideas at all.

[yzchopper]

I have long thought it would be a great idea to try and get the oil industry and others maybe? To try and hire a low timer fresh out of school person for say 40k WITH a signed agreement that as long as you would promise to stay for a minimum amount of time, the company would pay your monthly loan payment plus say like 5%.You of course are teamed up with a pilot for a while to satisfy insurance accident statistics so as to keep insurance mins down in both cost and min hours PIC required. The lower than current entry pay is because they are making your monthly payment, but your still making enough to live and if your able, you live below your means so YOU can also pay more toward your principle and get out of debt in just a few years rather 10 or more.

IF you left before the agreed terms you would then have to pay them back for the amount they paid into your loan. Trucking companies do this all the time, you sign on with Steven's transport in Dallas Tx. they will pay for your entire schooling if you fulfill their time agreement so they can recoup from you what it is they invested in you. I think this would be one way in which you could keep the instructor market less flooded with low time pilots, could then make it possible for higher priced loans to be taken out for the subsequent higher pay to be given to higher time pilots who would want to teach 5 days a week and be home everyday and leave the 7/7 or 14/14 world behind for a more stable lifestyle, thus opening more positions for the low timers to enter into the above mentioned contract agreement, then everyone gets paid more, loans are more secure, higher time pilots are training, producing better pilots, who then go out and get trained in an environment that DOES help them develop better decision making abilities because they have guidance from someone for the first year, who eventually will move on into higher hours required work and so on and so forth. Is that a faultless idea?, no, I'm sure as with any plan one can poke holes in it, but as stated before ideas getting one going in the right direction at the least will be tweaked and what not so that it does become the better model than the one that currently has a ton of shortcomings a well.

I know DP has recently entered into talks with companies with a very similar idea as the one I described, it is one that I wished when I first entered training in 07 had been available because I would have gone that route rather than the one I'm on now, which is being a CFII who is not flying for living, looking for work flying, and considering going back to car hauling and saving up for my own experimental and flying for fun for a while until maybe I have enough hours to fly for a living, cuz what the market looks like now, and the way it appears will be for a while is not blowing my skirt up.

Feel free to flame me for all the things I failed to think about, but like I said and others too, ideas that get you facing in the right direction to then at least fill in the holes are better than no ideas at all.

 

Well said and I totally agree 100%. Airlines use to do this with their pilots and flight attendants. They do not do it anymore because we under-derserving, low paying professional pilots allowed it to happen and did nothing at the start to stop it. Now thru out the years and many years later all we do is complain and when someone or a group of people come up with ideas to change for the better, most will say "it can't be done, stop trying to change things, leave it alone, and if you don't like the pay or what your doing then don't fly and find a different career"! I say stop being afraid and making excuses. Work with us and not against us and help the helicopter industry make a change for the better. You deserve it, we deserve it, I deserve it, our cleints & customers deserve it, our wife and children deserve it, the helicopter industry deserves it, but most importantly... our future pilots deserve it. As with time it will only get worse unless we as a whole (all helicopter pilots) get together and make a change.

[Inferno]

Finally some reason in this thread!

Well said and I totally agree 100%. Airlines use to do this with their pilots and flight attendants. They do not do it anymore because we under-derserving, low paying professional pilots allowed it to happen and did nothing at the start to stop it. Now thru out the years and many years later all we do is complain and when someone or a group of people come up with ideas to change for the better, most will say "it can't be done, stop trying to change things, leave it alone, and if you don't like the pay or what your doing then don't fly and find a different career"! I say stop being afraid and making excuses. Work with us and not against us and help the helicopter industry make a change for the better.

[Safa]

A very informative debate. I have no link to aviation what so ever. I am however about to start flight training and I have just had the #*^% scared out of me. I have done thorough research into flight schools etc etc. What scares me is not the debt accrued by the training itself but rather the bitterness and resentment that many carry in the helicopter industry. I have no experience with the industry as I have already stated, however is the industry really as bleak as many suggest. What strikes me as very prevalent is the need by some to carry this burden of negativity. I respect the person that has the guts to stand up and want to make a change. Your suggestions are valid and deserve consideration, not just abuse.

 

If the industry is as bad as said then change is neccessary. But in order to facilitate change an individual needs to change their own perception. As I have said I am about to start my training and I have a positive attitude towards this endeavour. I refuse to believe that all is bad in the industry and that persistence is key.

 

Just my two cents

[yzchopper]

I refuse to believe that all is bad in the industry and that persistence is key.

bitterness and resentment that many carry in the helicopter industry

Not all is bad. Persistence is only part of the key.

This bitterness and resentment is that lack of wanting to make change and would rather just complain and whine. As stated before, most are afraid of change, therefore would rather make excuses as why NOT to change but to leave it alone and do nothing. One person alone can not make the changes that are needed, but many agroup will succeed to make a change.

Do not give way to the negativity, but do look forward to the positive and continue on into a career many only wish they could do.

 

Steve

[RockyMountainPilot]

The many recent positive posts are quite encouraging. A hobby of mine is getting people to lose weight, and I am amazed that so many people blame their weight on genetics, a disorder, injury, etc. They keep making excuses why they can't lose weight which means they never do. Many people on this thread have the exact same attitude. They make excuses because they feel that making a change will be harder than living the way they do now.

 

When I was overweight, my father and mother both told me that I will always have weight problems. They told me it is genetic and I should just accept my chubbiness. I kept gaining weight over the years and eventually reach somewhere around 240. I made a lifestyle change and lost almost 80 pounds. I am now in the 160-165 range and I eat more than I did when I was heavy.

 

When I was a new flight instructor, I was started off making $12 an hour for flight and ground instruction. I had to wrench at $15 an hour to make ends meet. I was told by everyone in the industry that flight instructors make poor wages and that is just the way it is. If you want to make good money, then leave instruction behind. Well, I made money by wrenching, and instructed for fun. I opened my own FBO and charged $75 an hour as my shop rate. The going rate at for instructors at this point was $35 an hour. However, I always put wrenching first and started instructing less and less as the shop got busier because I made more. One student said "You charge $75 an hour shop rate, so I will pay you $75 an hour to instruct me if I can pull you out of the shop." I thought that this was so obvious that I was an idiot for not thinking of it. When I mentioned this to all my students, not one had a problem. My rates have increase since then.

 

So, the moral of these two stories is that an old lie is more believable than a new truth. Just because something is always been done one way, or "that's just how it is." does not mean you need to accept it at face value. If I had, i'd still be fat and underpaid.

[yzchopper]

The many recent positive posts are quite encouraging. A hobby of mine is getting people to lose weight, and I am amazed that so many people blame their weight on genetics, a disorder, injury, etc. They keep making excuses why they can't lose weight which means they never do. Many people on this thread have the exact same attitude. They make excuses because they feel that making a change will be harder than living the way they do now.

 

When I was overweight, my father and mother both told me that I will always have weight problems. They told me it is genetic and I should just accept my chubbiness. I kept gaining weight over the years and eventually reach somewhere around 240. I made a lifestyle change and lost almost 80 pounds. I am now in the 160-165 range and I eat more than I did when I was heavy.

 

When I was a new flight instructor, I was started off making $12 an hour for flight and ground instruction. I had to wrench at $15 an hour to make ends meet. I was told by everyone in the industry that flight instructors make poor wages and that is just the way it is. If you want to make good money, then leave instruction behind. Well, I made money by wrenching, and instructed for fun. I opened my own FBO and charged $75 an hour as my shop rate. The going rate at for instructors at this point was $35 an hour. However, I always put wrenching first and started instructing less and less as the shop got busier because I made more. One student said "You charge $75 an hour shop rate, so I will pay you $75 an hour to instruct me if I can pull you out of the shop." I thought that this was so obvious that I was an idiot for not thinking of it. When I mentioned this to all my students, not one had a problem. My rates have increase since then.

 

So, the moral of these two stories is that an old lie is more believable than a new truth. Just because something is always been done one way, or "that's just how it is." does not mean you need to accept it at face value. If I had, i'd still be fat and underpaid.

 

Thank you for the positve attitude story. Now maybe more positives and constructive suggestions can come of this topic. When I hear this: "that's just how it is." I think of the old saying " You can't teach an old dog new tricks". But I have learned you can if your willing to accept change for the better and have an open mind.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Thank you for the positve attitude story. Now maybe more positives and constructive suggestions can come of this topic. When I hear this: "that's just how it is." I think of the old saying " You can't teach an old dog new tricks". But I have learned you can if your willing to accept change for the better and have an open mind.

 

The same attitude is the major problem with everything. It is easier to teach a camel to sew with no eyes than it is to enter a rich thought in the mind of a man. Or something like that.

[permison]

It's funny the arguments here for "This is the way it has always been and this is the way it will always be.". I started a software company back in the old .com bubble days building software for small ISPs. It basically gave them the ability to compete with AOL by offering the same sort of walled garden that AOL offered. I started it with a few people who worked for me at AOL. We all built the AOL front end software so we knew what we were doing. I and others tried to tell the local/small ISPs that they needed to adopt or die. They just wanted to target the knowledgeable user. Didn't want anything to do with new users who needed hand holding and wanted nothing to do with content. Almost each and everyone from my list of potential customers is out of business. They gave the same tired old arguments. "This is the way it has always been and this is the way it will always be." The ones that bought our software are either still here or have been purchased by larger ISP and Cable companies.

 

We had a motto in the Army, analyze, adapt, and overcome. Maybe we should all start repeating that.

[kodoz]

"You charge $75 an hour shop rate, so I will pay you $75 an hour to instruct me if I can pull you out of the shop." I thought that this was so obvious that I was an idiot for not thinking of it. When I mentioned this to all my students, not one had a problem. My rates have increase since then.

 

Schools dictate the current rates for instruction, and the pay for their instructors. You were in a position where you could turn the tables, because you were in demand, right? You were a good enough instructor that you could dictate the terms. Right now there are enough of us that are unemployed that we can't put forward terms that would be in any way disagreeable to a school.

 

On top of that, I've seen plenty of instructors that were not worth the $35/hr that they were costing their students for ground school. I've paid for ground lessons that they should have paid me for. Simply slapping a stallion on a Pontiac doesn't make it a Ferrari. In the past, I have been willing to pay a premium for a premium instructor, but there are too many time builders out there teaching right now, and schools are fine with that.

 

I agree that we should move toward making instruction a professional job with pay to go with that, but I've stayed out of this thread because I wouldn't know where to start with doing that. The goal of simply raising wages for flight instructors isn't sufficient, but improving instruction or reducing the attrition rate for 200-hr pilots would be. (The demographic for helicopter student pilot--18-25 year old male--isn't going to buy the improved safety pitch.) One thing that has to happen is that guys who don't want to teach/can't teach need to be weeded out of programs early (which no school is going to send away a paying customer) or go somewhere else to build time (and that would be...?). Flight instruction is where most pilots will build time, and only 1 in 5 will get a flight instructor job. Granted, some pilots may not have career aspirations, but at many schools (Hillsboro, Bristow, Helicopter Academy, Silverhawk), probably the vast majority are on career tracks (or think they are--this illusion is the flight school subsidy). This creates a vast excess of pilots looking for jobs, and the powerline patrol, tuna boat, and other mythical time building jobs aren't enough to absorb this supply of pilots. When you have hundreds of guys sitting around with $65,000 of debt, no job, no other way to apply the education that they have, and diminishing prospects for realizing a payout on their investment, you get desperation ($12/hr to instruct? Where do I sign?).

 

Now, would students pay $200/hr for instruction if that instruction adequately trained them for a paying job when they finished? You do that, now you don't create an excess of 200-hr pilots willing to work for squat. You can pay your instructors like the professionals you want them to be and still run a profitable school. You can retain talent, and justify it. Your biggest challenges then would be getting students to recognize that a premium flight school is worth the premium price and getting financing for them.

 

Isn't there a Flight Instruction Committee with HAI? Aren't they thinking about these things, or what...?

[svtcobra66]

Instructors aren't worth anywhere near $200 an hour (I know, I am one). It's not that hard of a job, and there are a lot of people all wanting to instruct for peanuts

This is the mindset we are trying to change. If you feel this way, you should not be instructing. I for one would not have you as an instructor because of your attitude and lack of professionalism. To spend the money we do to become a CFII and then to degrade yourself is the whole reason for this discussion. To change for the better. You have to start somewhere, and if the pay bracket is where we start then so be it. Lets stop working for peanuts and be professional helicopter pilots and make some changes for the better. Lets start are pay at $65hr and change our mindset from not worthy because we are at the bottom to we are worthy because we are professionals.

 

Steve

 

Lack of professionalism? Because I'm don't think I'm worth $200 an hour as a flight instructor? You can wish all you want, but you're not going to force change on an industry that has willing participants already. As an instructor, 25 an hour isn't bad, that's what I was making. I flew 3-4 hours a day, you're not going to get rich but it's certainly enough to get by. Its people like you who don't understand how the economy operates, and constantly complain that pay is unjust or unfair when you knew the deal when you signed up. I could certainly understand higher rates for instrument, commercial, cfi etc, starting at 25 per hour, 35 per hour for instrument and cml, 45 per hour for CFI. That make sense, because of the greater degree of difficulty. But $100 is crazy, as is $200.

 

It's all about supply and demand, plain and simple. I'm a realist, I know I can instruct well as my students have excelled on checkrides and I've never had one fail. I've never been called unprofessional. Seeing as you read one post and formed an unfortunate opinion because I didn't agree with yours, well that seems a little ridiculous. We aren't at the bottom of the barrel, and I never said we were. We're pilots. You can't be the CEO of a company before you understand how a business works, but it seems like in this day and age more and more people want the results without the effort. The market balances itself out, and of course those less experienced will make less money than those with thousands of hours of flight time and time in actual imc, etc.

 

Here's a tip. Don't go 60k in the hole if you can't afford to pay the loans on flight instructor pay and/or savings. It's not the industry's fault you didn't plan ahead. Because of insurance company requirements, you just aren't going to get an EMS job out of flight school, and instructing provides entry level jobs at entry level pay. I have taught private through CFI students with success, and with the exception of professional long-line training, multi-engine turbine training, simulator training, etc, I don't see how you could legitimately say that a sub 2,000 hour helicopter instructor should earn anywhere near $200 an hour. But if you are making $200 an hour, do put in a good word for me

Edited January 20, 2010 by svtcobra66

[RockyMountainPilot]

Schools dictate the current rates for instruction, and the pay for their instructors. You were in a position where you could turn the tables, because you were in demand, right? You were a good enough instructor that you could dictate the terms. Right now there are enough of us that are unemployed that we can't put forward terms that would be in any way disagreeable to a school.

 

On top of that, I've seen plenty of instructors that were not worth the $35/hr that they were costing their students for ground school. I've paid for ground lessons that they should have paid me for. Simply slapping a stallion on a Pontiac doesn't make it a Ferrari. In the past, I have been willing to pay a premium for a premium instructor, but there are too many time builders out there teaching right now, and schools are fine with that.

 

I agree that we should move toward making instruction a professional job with pay to go with that, but I've stayed out of this thread because I wouldn't know where to start with doing that. The goal of simply raising wages for flight instructors isn't sufficient, but improving instruction or reducing the attrition rate for 200-hr pilots would be. (The demographic for helicopter student pilot--18-25 year old male--isn't going to buy the improved safety pitch.) One thing that has to happen is that guys who don't want to teach/can't teach need to be weeded out of programs early (which no school is going to send away a paying customer) or go somewhere else to build time (and that would be...?). Flight instruction is where most pilots will build time, and only 1 in 5 will get a flight instructor job. Granted, some pilots may not have career aspirations, but at many schools (Hillsboro, Bristow, Helicopter Academy, Silverhawk), probably the vast majority are on career tracks (or think they are--this illusion is the flight school subsidy). This creates a vast excess of pilots looking for jobs, and the powerline patrol, tuna boat, and other mythical time building jobs aren't enough to absorb this supply of pilots. When you have hundreds of guys sitting around with $65,000 of debt, no job, no other way to apply the education that they have, and diminishing prospects for realizing a payout on their investment, you get desperation ($12/hr to instruct? Where do I sign?).

 

Now, would students pay $200/hr for instruction if that instruction adequately trained them for a paying job when they finished? You do that, now you don't create an excess of 200-hr pilots willing to work for squat. You can pay your instructors like the professionals you want them to be and still run a profitable school. You can retain talent, and justify it. Your biggest challenges then would be getting students to recognize that a premium flight school is worth the premium price and getting financing for them.

 

Isn't there a Flight Instruction Committee with HAI? Aren't they thinking about these things, or what...?

 

Kodoz,

 

You are correct that all instructors are not worth the money. Heck, I met one today who I fired in 20 minutes. I was going to add on my MEI. Not sure why, thought it might eventually come in handy. After 20 years of flying and never needing it, I still wonder why I even went, but I figured it would be some good training of G1000's with which I am not terribly familiar.

 

The instructor was an experienced pilot who used to fly jets. He has a lear and citation type rating. We sat down and started ground. With in a few minutes he asked me what the stall speed on this airplane was. I said "the airplane will stall at any speed." He said "no, what is the published stall speed." I said bottom of the green arc flaps up, bottom of the white arc flaps down. He said "no, what is the number?" I said, "I don't know and don't care. Why should I memorize something that is displayed on an instrument in front of me?" I have flown over 100 different types of airplanes and helicopters, so memorizing numbers that I don't need to know is pointless. It isn't required in the PTS to memorize numbers and over reliance on reference numbers can be dangerous. He basically told me that unless I did it his way, I wasn't going to get what I was after. Bye bye.

 

So, here is a guy with plenty of experience as a pilot who shouldn't be instructing. He probably never learned how to teach. He knows how he does it and he can show people how he does it, but he doesn't know how to help someone learn for themselves. There are many different techniques in flying. I have one student who always approaches a little high and a little fast because it makes him more comfortable. He always gets the altitude and speed burned off before touchdown and has no problem with the steeper flair. (This is fixed wing). It works for him, so why should I make him do it the way I do it. It is safe and within the PTS standards, so I build on that rather than trying to tear down and start again. A good instructor doesn't try and reinvent the wheel. Work with what you have. If it is unsafe, change it and explain why.

 

Would I pay $200 for this instructor? Heck no. I would pay a dime! Would I pay $200 for a 300 hour instructor who was excellent at teaching and knowledgeable? Yes, in a heart beat.

 

The flight schools set the rate according to the industry standard. They do not see or understand the incentives for them to change. The object is to get them all on board and change together, slowly, and in a positive direction. Not only in pay, but in quality of instruction. As you might have seen on other threads, many people are concern with signing people off in the minimum time required. That seems to be a major focus. It should be the smallest focus and the main focus on increasing the level and quality of instruction. As of right now, I wouldn't let anyone of my friends or family in or near a helicopter with a newly minted 150 hour commercial pilot. The standards are far too low in my opinion. The training is all about meeting the PTS minimums. Think about that. The PTS is the minimum! Should pilots be trained to a minimum level? Especially one set by our government? Everyone knows the saying "Good enough for government work!" Right? If there is a safety problem, it takes years for the government to react.

 

Just some more thoughts to think about. The more we argue about why it cant be done, the more time we waste getting it done.

[RockyMountainPilot]

Lack of professionalism? Because I'm don't think I'm worth $200 an hour as a flight instructor? You can wish all you want, but you're not going to force change on an industry that has willing participants already. As an instructor, 25 an hour isn't bad, that's what I was making. I flew 3-4 hours a day, you're not going to get rich but it's certainly enough to get by. Its people like you who don't understand how the economy operates, and constantly complain that pay is unjust or unfair when you knew the deal when you signed up. I could certainly understand higher rates for instrument, commercial, cfi etc, starting at 25 per hour, 35 per hour for instrument and cml, 45 per hour for CFI. That make sense, because of the greater degree of difficulty. But $100 is crazy, as is $200.

 

It's all about supply and demand, plain and simple. I'm a realist, I know I can instruct well as my students have excelled on checkrides and I've never had one fail. I've never been called unprofessional. Seeing as you read one post and formed an unfortunate opinion because I didn't agree with yours, well that seems a little ridiculous. We aren't at the bottom of the barrel, and I never said we were. We're pilots. You can't be the CEO of a company before you understand how a business works, but it seems like in this day and age more and more people want the results without the effort. The market balances itself out, and of course those less experienced will make less money than those with thousands of hours of flight time and time in actual imc, etc.

 

Here's a tip. Don't go 60k in the hole if you can't afford to pay the loans on flight instructor pay and/or savings. It's not the industry's fault you didn't plan ahead. Because of insurance company requirements, you just aren't going to get an EMS job out of flight school, and instructing provides entry level jobs at entry level pay. I have taught private through CFI students with success, and with the exception of professional long-line training, multi-engine turbine training, simulator training, etc, I don't see how you could legitimately say that a sub 2,000 hour helicopter instructor should earn anywhere near $200 an hour. But if you are making $200 an hour, do put in a good word for me

 

Please read all the posts in the thread. You are arguing things you do not understand and that have already been addressed.

[svtcobra66]

Please read all the posts in the thread. You are arguing things you do not understand and that have already been addressed.

 

No I read your posts, I'm just disagreeing. Heard of the invisible hand of the market? Why do you think companies like GM are failing? Because they're stuck paying union workers ridiculously high salaries so they can't be competitive. I'll never be a member of a union, because in the end the market knows what is best, as people are willing to pay what a service or product is worth. Some instructors are worth more than others, sure, but the change you guys are talking about won't happen because it is unrealistic. Saying it's people like me that stop it from happening is wrong, it just isn't going to happen because of the way business works.

 

We're in a recession, and everyone is overreacting. It will get better with time, there will always be cycles like this.

 

I didn't know we had to post responses that agreed with you.

[yzchopper]

svtcobra66,

You missed the whole point to that thread because it seems you do not see the bigger picture. Your stuck in the old ways of supply and demand.

[svtcobra66]

That's not the old way, it's the way the world works. Pretending it isn't won't change anything, other than frustrate those who think they understand better than the consumer. Go ahead and start a flight school where instructors cost $100-$200 an hour, and see what happens. Any time the government steps in to "handle" a problem in the free market, they end up making matters worse. Why do you think that is? Why do you think companies operate efficiently? If they don't, they won't survive. This is reality.

 

Yzchopper, what kind of experience do you have running a business?

Edited January 20, 2010 by svtcobra66

[yzchopper]

What experience would you like. I've operated an ag business and a small flight school. The ag business for for over 16yrs and the flight school for just over 1.5yrs.

[svtcobra66]

And what did you pay your instructors?

[yzchopper]

I paid myself $65/hr. It is my flight school and I do it on the side.

[RockyMountainPilot]

That's not the old way, it's the way the world works. Pretending it isn't won't change anything, other than frustrate those who think they understand better than the consumer. Go ahead and start a flight school where instructors cost $100-$200 an hour, and see what happens. Any time the government steps in to "handle" a problem in the free market, they end up making matters worse. Why do you think that is? Why do you think companies operate efficiently? If they don't, they won't survive. This is reality.

 

Yzchopper, what kind of experience do you have running a business?

 

Supply and demand is not very well understood. It works great in highly liquid markets like stocks, mutual funds, forex, etc. In products and services, it does not work well at all. You understand the liquid market ideal of supply vs demand, but you fail to see the complexity of something like a product or service. When a company has a product to sell, they don't just send them to the store and see how much people are willing to pay for them. They spend thousands and sometimes millions of dollars to study the market to set a price they "think" will be the most profitable. Well, I don't know any flight school willing or capable of doing this, so the law of supply and demand is trumped by the theory of "cheap is better."

 

And you blame the unions but not the executive who kept pumping out Suburbans instead of Prius'?

[svtcobra66]

Well i'm not going to start a flame war here, but a one person flight school isn't a flight school, its a guy with a helicopter, and it's a side business. Run a flight school for profit and then come back on the forum and tell me how you intend to pay the instructors what you deem they are worth and still stay competitive.

 

Clearly you are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. I hope you are successful in your efforts to make flight instructor's salary skyrocket, but my gut tells me the reality will be something different. I don't think I'll change your opinion on this today, but I think in time it will become evident that instructors simply aren't worth $100 per hour. I don't know how you could turn a profit at $65 per hour and stay competitive if it wasn't your own side business and you had to pay the bills as well as pay your instructors.