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R22 12 year overhaul question


J.Grant
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Thoughts? I'm looking to buy an R22 so I can build time and hopefully do some instruction. I'm limited on how much I can spend. So lets just say that anything over 100k is too much. I understand I'm limiting myself on the number of ships just on that fact alone. That being said, I looked at an '89 mariner a few days ago. It appeared clean inside and out. Good paint, no visible dents, cranks, leaks, or anything I could see to throw up a red flag (other than the pilots comm button that liked to work half the time or a dull pulsing buzz in the headset). -4 blades with less than 100 hours on them. All AD's and SB's are done. All maintenance for that matter has been done by a robinson service center. Annual was done last November and the 22 has flown less than an hour since. The helicopter has only had it's one owner and has been in a heated hanger it's whole life. It also has 1200 hours TT and has never been overhauled. ???

I took it out for a flight with the owner. No problems there that I could see. We had a tank and a half of fuel. Two pilots roughly 320 lbs, at sea level with OAT of 10. At 85 knots the ship was smooth in the controls and maintained altitude; while at almost 23".

Closer to the ground I also saw and felt no problems, temps where good and everything was saying in the green. Post flight exam showed no signs of leaks, high temps, or problems.

The next stop was the service center to look at the log books. One of my questions was about the overhaul since it had never been done and this helicopter was almost 20 years old. I was told "that is a robinson recommendation not a requirement".

My next plan is to get a pre-purchase evaluation by another service center to get an outside voice on the helicopter. But before I go spend the money to get that done. My questions is "is the 12 year overhaul a recommendation or a requirement".

I've looked for other postings about this question but I haven't found any yet. I also asked this question to others including other robinson service centers during my search for someone to do the pre purchase. Everyone I talked to said it is a "requirement". So then I asked why would a service center tell me it's a recommendation while others tell me that it required.

I don't want to go spend this kind of money just to find out I was stupid and didn't get the correct information. Second, I don't want to be flying around, have something happen then have the finger pointed at me because everything was done correctly except the overhaul.

Thank you in advance for any insight,

J. Grant

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Get a hold of the R22 maintenance manual. It will tell you the exact inspection requirements, and at which intervals. Might even email Robinson, and have them scan and email where it says the maintenance is required or recommended. Personally, I have never heard of maintenance that is "recommended."

Edited by RagMan
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Not an AP, but think this is right. I have read the manuals.

 

Every 12 years perform 12-year inspection and limited overhaul per Section 2.600 or overhaul per Section 2.700.

 

This inspection does not supersede 2200 hour inspection and overhaul requirements.

 

This is one of the better explainations I've read on the subject in simple terms and examples.

 

MSA Link

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Not an AP, but think this is right. I have read the manuals.

This is one of the better explainations I've read on the subject in simple terms and examples.

 

MSA Link

 

Brad- thats one of the best sites I've seen, thanks for posting it. I remember when the 12 year first came around, I always thought it was just a way for Frank to get the old blades off his ships and keep some overhaul dollars flowing. But I have always considered the 12 year a mandatory inspection.

 

The problem with it, is it just doesnt make much financial sense to do a 12 year, only to tear the ship down again 800 or 1000 hours later, and pay most of that cost all over again.

 

I've seen several over 12 year ships for sale, I'd be curious to hear from anyone that feels this is just a recommendation.

 

Back to the original post, I would keep looking. Some HP's out there reasonably priced, find something with 300 or 400 hours left and go burn em off! Then just sell the ship timed out.

 

Good Luck,

 

Goldy

Edited by Goldy
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I remember hearing at Robinson that even if you had a brand new helicopter that just sat in a hanger and never flew, after 12yrs there are certain parts that would have to be thrown away, like the blades, I believe. :huh:

 

By the way, just in case you didn't notice, a Mariner cannot fly at night with the floats on.

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Disclaimer: I have NO interest in the R22 or the seller, broker or the flight school.

 

Here is one that might work for you. Here is the listing but the ship is in MD. It is close to your figure with close to 900 hours left. Worth a shot. Good luck in your search!

 

 

http://www.r44sales.com/1989R22BetaforSaleSN1110.html

 

 

It flew great and has been well maintained by their two great techs Bart & Forrest.

 

I know the helicopter and have a total of 3.0+ hours in it, as recent as January 9, 2010.

 

 

FYI: As far as you may teach in it.... Let me say, if you are limited on funds to buy, then you will probably be "shocked" to find out that insurance for the ship for you to teach in will be at least $26,000.00 a year. That could drop if you were to lease-back to a flight school and then teach in it, but still looking at $18,000.00 a year on their insurance. Now for personal/business (not commercial) use by you, it will be in the range of 7,000 - 9,000 a year.

 

Just wanted you to go in with your eyes W I D E open.

 

edspilot

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By the way, just in case you didn't notice, a Mariner cannot fly at night with the floats on.

 

You can get an STC to put extra nav lights on the floats, making it night legal. I'm not sure what it costs, it looks pretty simple, they just strap on.

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Mechanic thanks for posting that link. It seems to put things in easy to read terms.

edspilot, ya I've been looking at insurance also. I've got a stack of papers with different cost calculations. I've called different places getting quotes. Some quotes are under 15,000 with commercial op's. I'll make sure that whatever op's I do will be written in my policy. Thanks for looking out.

I'm thinking I'll take another look at the log books. The service center may have replaced all of the components that have to be inspected or replaced at the 12 year except taking the skids off and inspecting them. The idea behind this was because the helicopter has been inside a hanger it's whole life and the only water it has seen has been during a wash. I would have to think that a service center wouldn't want to steer a customer the wrong way but not doing required maintenance. But what do I know.

Thanks to everyone for their replies!

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wow... I'm not a robinson guy so I'd have to look at the manual to see if the 12 year deal is in the FAA approved section. I was always under the impression it was not.

 

If you want to do the 12 year deal great.. spend away

 

If you are not operating on a part 135 certificate you do not have to do the 12 year deal.

 

Factory manual says do it. FAA does not require it unless part 135.

Edited by apiaguy
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Ya, no 135 stuff going on here. I'm leaning more towards going on with the pre-purchase and seeing what findings come from that. Thanks apiaguy!

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Looking at the R22 and R44 maintenance manual and type certificate this was found:

 

The 12 years overhaul is not required for an R22.

The 12 year overhaul is required for the R44 as it is part of the TYPE CERTIFICATE

 

It is important though to comply with the life limited parts and or time.

Ex: -4 blade MUST be replaced every 10 years.

Tail rotor gear box must be replaced at 2200 hours.

Edited by coptermedic
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I was looking at the same heli......my service center said its required to do a 12yr since its in the manual as required by the maintenance manual. Truth is you can do whatever you want as long as you don't crash. Don't expect to have insurance cover it when you ball it up and they see it never had a 12 year. If you were just going to fly it personally, go for it. Flight training....hope nothing happens. Just my 2 cents

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Susie and I bought a R22 Beta II a few months ago. It is a 2004 with 1600 hours. We paid $91K plus tax. It was used for training but was in good condition with a good 430 gps radio. I think that we bought at the bottom of the market for R22's. I am sure that there are other good deals lurking. The Silverstate helis are coming back on the market.

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I was looking at the same heli......my service center said its required to do a 12yr since its in the manual as required by the maintenance manual. Truth is you can do whatever you want as long as you don't crash. Don't expect to have insurance cover it when you ball it up and they see it never had a 12 year. If you were just going to fly it personally, go for it. Flight training....hope nothing happens. Just my 2 cents

 

When it comes to a service center.......

 

They are required to maintain the helicopter IAW the RHC maintenance manual, or they can lose their authorization the be a service center.

 

So while it might be perfectly legal for your RHC service center to work on your helicopter that is 12+ out of overhaul, under contract, they cannot.

 

As you said, don't expect to get insurance, nor a loan on an aircraft that is not being operated IAW the maintenance manual, all service bulletins, etc.

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  • 4 years later...

Looking at the R22 and R44 maintenance manual and type certificate this was found:

 

The 12 years overhaul is not required for an R22.

The 12 year overhaul is required for the R44 as it is part of the TYPE CERTIFICATE

 

It is important though to comply with the life limited parts and or time.

Ex: -4 blade MUST be replaced every 10 years.

Tail rotor gear box must be replaced at 2200 hours.

 

Greetings,

I was looking at the overhaul requirements too and their implied costs before taking a decision on which rotorcraft to buy (an R22 or an ultralight with less burden in term of legal obligations). I came upon your post and thought "maybe this is it !" but I needed to see for myself so I looked for those maintenance manual on the internet and my interpretation regarding the R22's maintenance manual differs slightly from yours.

 

Maintenance manual for the R22, chapter 3, can be downloaded with following link: http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/R22/R22MM_3.pdf

§3.120 which is about 12 years inspection and limited overhaul requirement indicates that "The helicopter must be inspected and specified components replaced per section 2.600 when the aircraft has been serviced for twelve years since new or last overhaul"

 

The parts listed in section 2.600 are fortunately much less than a complete overhaul but the maintenance does list parts which 'must' be replaced according to the maintenance manual.

 

How would you renew your aircraft airworthiness certificate while ignoring the maintenance manual requirements? The R22 type certificate might not be explicit about it but the maintenance manual is. The only good news I see is those 12 years has much less parts required to change than a complete overhaul (so less cost) after 2000 hrs, but a deep inspection is still required..

 

Cheers,

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Manufacturer recommended maintenance is not mandatory, and if you don't perform the recommended action, your airworthiness certificate is still valid.

 

 

Minimum requirements are:

 

 

Current annual inspection.

 

 

All AD's in compliance.

 

 

All inspections and replacement parts listed in the Airworthiness Limitations section of the maintenance manual are complied with... That’s the page in the R22 maintenance manual that is approved by the FAA (look for the signature block at the bottom of the page).

 

 

See:

 

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2011/macmillan%20-%20(2011)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

 

 

 

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Maintenance manual for the R22, chapter 3, can be downloaded with following link: http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/R22/R22MM_3.pdf

 

§3.120 which is about 12 years inspection and limited overhaul requirement indicates that "The helicopter must be inspected and specified components replaced per section 2.600 when the aircraft has been serviced for twelve years since new or last overhaul"

 

How would you renew your aircraft airworthiness certificate while ignoring the maintenance manual requirements?

 

 

Following the minimum requirements listed in rotormatic1 post above will allow you to operate under part 91 notwithstanding any recommended maintenance, ie. 12year/2200 hours. See the reference link at the end for that post.

 

 

Minimum requirements are:

1. Current annual inspection.

2. All AD's in compliance.

3. All inspections and replacement parts listed in the Airworthiness Limitations section of the maintenance manual are complied with.

http://www.faa.gov/a...erpretation.pdf

 

Also see the 2011 post on this issue:

R22 Airworthiness past 2200 hrs. (Posted 15 October 2011)

 

The R22 maintenance manual’s “Airworthiness Limitations” are in Section 3 on page 3.3 (not page 3.2).

 

Page 3.3 is FAA approved and sets forth each mandatory (must do) replacement times, structural inspection intervals, and related structural inspections.

 

As long as the owner complies with section 3, page 3.3, in the R22 maintenance manual, the aircraft and engine can be maintained under FAR 91.403, 91.409a, 43.15c, 43.16, and Appendix D to Part 43 in an airworthy condition.

 

 

 

Appendix A to Part 27—Instructions for Continued Airworthiness

 

A27.4 Airworthiness Limitations section.

 

The Instructions for Continued Airworthiness must contain a section, titled Airworthiness Limitations that is segregated and clearly distinguishable from the rest of the document.

 

This section must set forth each mandatory replacement time, structural inspection interval, and related structural inspection procedure required for type certification.

 

If the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness consist of multiple documents, the section required by this paragraph must be included in the principal manual.

 

This section must contain a legible statement in a prominent location that reads: “The Airworthiness Limitations section is FAA approved and specifies inspections and other maintenance required under §§43.16 and 91.403 of the Federal Aviation Regulations unless an alternative program has been FAA approved.”

Edited by iChris
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