Part 141 commercial hours

[rjl2001]

In 141 Appendix D - it gives the time requirement of 115 hours for rotorcraft commercial rating. It then further says the course must include 30hrs with a CFI covering certain areas (xc's,etc.) and also specifies solo requirements. From what I understand, flight time accrued while gaining your instrument helicopter rating will count towards the 115 hours needed for commercial. I've heard the reasoning that those instrument hours will count is because you can be 'dual enrolled', working on your instrument and commercial courses at the same time.

 

Now my question is if someone completes their instrument helicopter rating at one Part 141 school and then transfers to a new Part 141 school to get their commercial. Does that situation affect those instrument hours as counting towards the commercial requirement? Does 141.67 apply to this situation? That says "A person who transfers from one part 141 approved pilot school to another part 141 approved pilot school may receive credit for that previous training, provided... The maximum credited training time does not exceed one-half of the receiving school's curriculum requirements. and ... The receiving school retains a copy of the person's training record from the previous school."

 

I've heard different answers from different instructors, so maybe someone can clear this up better for me. Finally I also heard an instructor saying he could fly with the student during the solo hours needed for commercial, and that way both could log the time. Is there something I'm missing somewhere or would the solo definition from 61.87 apply, "that flight time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft..."?

[ADRidge]

I don't know about the 141 questions, but the instructor who said he could ride along on solo's is an idiot. Solo is solo is solo. Period.

[helopilot2be]

I don't know about the 141 questions, but the instructor who said he could ride along on solo's is an idiot. Solo is solo is solo. Period.

Well, not exactly...

14CFR Sec. 61.129( c )( 4 ) says "Ten hours of solo flight time in a helicopter or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a helicopter with an authorized instructor on board (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement under paragraph ( c )( 2 ) of this section), on the areas of operation listed under §61.127((3) that includes—

 

(i) One cross-country flight with landings at a minimum of three points, with one segment consisting of a straight-line distance of at least 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

 

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern)."

 

Sounds like solo with an instructor to me. I think it is dumb, but that's what it says.

Chris

 

 

p.s. 61.87 has nothing to do with a private pilot training for the commercial certificate. § 61.87 Solo requirements for student pilots.

[rjl2001]

Thanks Chris, that must be what the instructor was referring to. I missed that one when looking through there. I agree it seems a bit odd though.

[ADRidge]

I won't argue that you can credit ten hours of dual towards that same requirement, but saying that he can ride along on a solo flight is wrong.

[Trans Lift]

Either way, do the hours SOLO. It will be more beneficial to you. If the instructor insists in coming along just tell him no, unless you don't want to go solo of course.

[Rob M.]

As far as your 141 question goes. If you transfer from a 141 school to another 141 school; then half the hours that you flew after getting your private rating, can be transferred over to the new school and be counted towards your commercial rating and my instructor had the chief pilot sign off on my records stating the hours were good just to be on the safe side when i went up for my Checkride.

 

For example, if you flew 30 hours after receiving your private rating and then you transfer to another 141 approved school, then 15 of those hours can count towards the 115 hours required to get your commercial rating.

[Boatpix]

I manage a Part 141 School and my suggestion would be to ask your Chief or a Designated Pilot Examiner. This will save yourself a lot of time and misinformation. They always have a high ranking FAA man on speed dial if they are unsure.

[rjl2001]

Thanks for the info. I do plan on speaking with the Chief Pilot and getting a definite answer, as I've heard even more conflicting answers from others.

 

And Trans Lift, I agree with your view. Unfortunately, after I voiced my preference for performing at least some SOLO flight during the course of the commercial program, I was shot down. I understand their stating that it is safer to fly with an instructor, but at the same time I'm taking it to mean they do not trust students to safely fly their helicopters by themselves.

 

Now I have another question for you guys. They told me that while flying any SOLO time in one of their helicopters, the student is also billed for the instructor rate the whole time they're out flying. This sounds a little funny to me, as I've never heard of this before. I thought normally solo rental rates were cheaper than dual rates, but if you're paying the instructor the whole time your doing any solo what's the point?

[Pohi]

Thanks for the info. I do plan on speaking with the Chief Pilot and getting a definite answer, as I've heard even more conflicting answers from others.

 

And Trans Lift, I agree with your view. Unfortunately, after I voiced my preference for performing at least some SOLO flight during the course of the commercial program, I was shot down. I understand their stating that it is safer to fly with an instructor, but at the same time I'm taking it to mean they do not trust students to safely fly their helicopters by themselves.

 

Now I have another question for you guys. They told me that while flying any SOLO time in one of their helicopters, the student is also billed for the instructor rate the whole time they're out flying. This sounds a little funny to me, as I've never heard of this before. I thought normally solo rental rates were cheaper than dual rates, but if you're paying the instructor the whole time your doing any solo what's the point?

 

 

Shot down by who? The instructor, who wants to milk you for as many hours as he can get, or the school itself? There is a big difference there.

 

As for the billing part, typically companies will bill for the helicopter and then during dual, bill for the instructor also..... Which is usually more than what the instructor ever sees ( :-D ) but I digress. IMO, it is pretty screwed up to bill the crap out of you for things that you are not using. But, then again, every school is different.

 

You are the customer here, do not forget that. Flight training is very expensive and you should be able to get what you want, and to be satisfied with what you get from the school.

 

If I went to buy an expensive car and the salesman told me that I could only have the car that is painted bright orange because it is the safest color, and that I had to pay the full MSRP then I would go down the street to one of the other hundreds of dealers that would be willing to work with me.

[Spike]

Unfortunately, after I voiced my preference for performing at least some SOLO flight during the course of the commercial program, I was shot down.

 

They told me that while flying any SOLO time in one of their helicopters, the student is also billed for the instructor rate the whole time they're out flying.

 

What do the specific lessons prescribe? If they say “solo flight”, then per FAR definition, that means no instructor onboard.

 

One avenue for you is to request to be dropped form the 141 program and go PART 61. This way, the school isn’t bound by the requirements of the specific lessons outlined in the 141 syllabus (if solo flights are in fact prohibited by the syllabus). Mind you, the school will make every attempt to talk you out of dropping the 141 and may put you at a disadvantage as a potential future employee. However, by your description of the policies in place, like billing for instructors while flying solo, they are shafting the students to point of possibly being criminal. If you haven’t invested too much time and money with this school, I’d say it may be a good idea to take your business elsewhere……..

[rjl2001]

Pohi, Well I voiced my preference to two different CFI's I've been flying with and got pretty much the same response. The rule to fly the 10hrs. PIC instead of SOLO, came either from the Chief Pilot or the Owner of the school, and the CFI's response was "that's one opinion, but it is what it is." But I'm almost done with the 10hrs. PIC anyway, so I guess there's no point to bring it up anymore.

 

Also, I was scheduled to take my Stage I written at the school tomorrow. I mentioned to the CFI it would probably take me almost 3 hours, as I've already taken the exact same test with them before and passed it. Just now I was informed if I took it then I would be charged for the instructor rate (60/hr.) the time it took to complete. But he did say I can take it after Christmas when the receptionist lady will be back without getting charged.

 

Spike, I suppose I could check their 141 syllabus as it probably doesn't reflect the new change regarding not flying SOLO, but don't want to come off as argumentative. Besides they wouldn't give me a personal copy of the syllabus, I have to ask my CFI to let me look at it (I asked when I first started). As far as switching to Part 61, I'm appreciative of the advice, but isn't an option for me under the Veterans education benefits I'm using.

Edited December 21, 2010 by rjl2001

[Tarantula]

I've gotta say, getting billed for an instructor when you're not using them is pretty low. I would definitely look around if that was the case. Whats next, you get billed the turbine rate for a piston because "they're both helicopters" ?

[Spike]

 

Spike, I suppose I could check their 141 syllabus as it probably doesn't reflect the new change regarding not flying SOLO, but don't want to come off as argumentative. Besides they won't give me a personal copy of the syllabus, I have to ask my CFI to look at it (I asked when I first started). As far as switching to Part 61, I'm appreciative of the advice, but isn't an option for me under the Veterans education benefits I'm using. For that matter attending a different school isn't a viable option either.

Again, by your description, the operator is not on the up & up. Regardless of his excuses, charging students for instructors while flying solo is not okay. Secondly, you not having access to a copy of the syllabus is not okay either. In fact:

 

§ 141.93 Enrollment.

(a) The holder of a pilot school certificate or a provisional pilot school certificate must, at the time a student is enrolled in an approved training course, furnish that student with a copy of the following:

(1) A certificate of enrollment containing—

(i) The name of the course in which the student is enrolled; and

(ii) The date of that enrollment.

(2) A copy of the student's training syllabus.

 

Know this, not all flight schools are legit. Some operators know exactly how to take advantage of the student loan programs, like veterans, in order to make money. I’m not sure why you don’t have a viable alternative to seeking another flight school but I suggest you contact your veteran’s affairs folks and explain the situation. Your service to our country is very much appreciated but it’s no excuse for others to take advantage of the benefits you earned and paid by taxpayers.

 

While I completely understand why you don’t want to appear to be argumentative, by what you’ve said, this is no place you want to be associated with as an instructor. One day, the cards will tumble and you don’t want to be connected with that in the slightest.....……

Edited December 21, 2010 by Spike

[helistar]

In northern Az there's only two schools I know of offering 141 flight training and since both are associated with either a 2 or 4 year program (AS or BS degree) you could also discuss the issue with your college aviation departments program director as oppose to the flight school which is basically a sub-contractor.

 

FYI, both flight schools also monitor this forum.

[NC AV8R]

I attend a part 141 school and use the GI Bill. My school charges a flat rate for the helicopter rental regardless if it is dual or solo flight. They say the solo time is "supervised solo." I'm not sure if the schools insurance policy requires an instructor to be there, on the ground, or if this is just a money maker.

 

Unlike you rjl2001, I do solo time solo.

 

If my instructor has to be present while I solo, thats fine. I have no problem with paying a flat rate. The only thing I have a problem with is still paying for pre and post flight time with the instructor during solo time when the instructor is on the ground doing nothing.

 

I'm not certain, but I don't think the school even charges students who aren't using the GI Bill the pre and post flight time. If that is true that is most definitely taking advantage of veterans.

 

Switching schools is not an option for me either as the 141/VA approved schools are few and far between. Moving isn't an option for me.

 

I'm sure someone from my school will read this forum....but I don't care. That's just my two cents.

Edited December 21, 2010 by NC AV8R

[Pohi]

I am curious as to why switching schools is a problem. I did my training under VA 141, it is possible to switch programs and even schools if there is the desire. I understand if there are reasons such as a family and a job that is making things difficult to leave a particular area.

 

If those are not issues, then switching places might be an option.

 

As far as getting charged for instructors while you are taking a test.... oh dear lord.

 

I would gladly pay the instructor to take the test for me, but I see no reason why you should get billed for the time while you are taking the test.

 

Next thing you know, you are going to get billed for the instructor rate while your instructor drives back and forth to the airport every day.

[crashed_05]

you need to get some students together and shake some cages.