Is this BAD NEWS for Helicopter Schools??

[AdminLB]

Am I to interpret this (article and bill below) as meaning that Vet's will only be able to use $17,500.00 per year now to pursue a pilot training program, even when attached to a college? A helicopter student would blow through that $$ in no time. This might create a disincentive for vet's to move into pilot training programs to begin with if they cannot move through it at a decent pace for lack of funding.

 

The VA money train has been a lifeline for many helicopter schools since the banks have run from the industry. Not good if the VA Source dries up.

 

Does anyone interpret it differently?

 

I have a phone call into the AOPA Vice President of Legislative Affairs Lorraine Howerton who is quoted in the article as saying this is "Great News".

 

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2010/101217_Veterans_flight_training_assistance_passes_Congress.html

 

http://www.gop.gov/bill/111/2/s3447

 

Regards,

Lyn

[crashed_05]

Yeah, I don't see it as an improvement. I guess the benefit is being able to do flight training that is not associated with a college degree, but I think a college degree is a good thing. And why the reduction in benefits? A friend of mine at ERAU sent the following to me a few days ago...

 

Subject Line: Changes to Post 9/11 Gi Bill

 

 

 

Fellow Veterans,

 

Last night the U.S House of Representatives passed a bill that directly affects those of us attending Embry-Riddle and especially those in flight training. The bill is S. 3447 Post 9/11 Veterans Educational Assistance Improvement Act of 2010. The highlights from this bill include the following:

 

· Capping the max payment for tuition AND fees at $17,500 nationwide

 

· Elimination of max fees per state including the $15,000 currently being used for flight training

 

· Adjustment of BAH according to the number of credit hours per semester

 

Although the bill did pass the Senate and House there are still several courses we would like to pursue before it takes affect on Aug 1, 2011. We have been working closely with the Staff here at Embry-Riddle and they are working hard to have several changes in-place before it takes affect including:

 

· Adding a hold harmless clause for those Veterans already enrolled

 

· If possible to grandfather those already in school

 

· Adding a clause for flight training purposes

 

Here’s what we need from you! We are going to be organizing a group of people willing to call or write their local congressmen to appeal for these changes. We are also going to be working closely with the Daytona Beach campus and other organizations and schools who also face similar challenges.

 

Currently this bill is being supported by the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America, Student Veterans of America, the American Legion, the Veterans of Foreign Wars, Disabled American Veterans. These organizations supported the bill because it did have one good aspect to it. It changed the Post 9/11 GI bill to include more Reserve and National Guard members. We support this particular aspect of the bill but we do not support cutting of present veterans’ benefits including tuition and fees. We need changes to be made in the application of this bill and we need your support.

 

Stay posted for updates as we will be sending out more information as we receive it.

 

If you would like more information or would like to get involved please contact the Student Veterans Organization at pr.veterans@erau.edu here at Embry-Riddle or any of the following members:

 

Fred Cone, Veterans Coordinator (928) 777-6733

Terry Willis, President SVO (928) 277-5813

Daniel Rettig (610) 739-2152

 

Thank you for your support

 

News reports for on the changes:

 

 

 

Army Times:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/12/military-senate-oks-GI-Bill-improvements-121310w/

The Library of Congress: Bill summary

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:SN03447:@@@D&summ2=m&

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Judy Segner

 

Veterans Affairs

 

Financial Aid Office

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University

Direct: 928.777.3389

Fax: 928.777.3893

Edited December 21, 2010 by crashed_05

[helistar]

(Sec. 102) Replace the current system of limits on payments to institutions of higher education on behalf of veterans participating in P-9/11 with a two-tiered payment system, with one tier for payments to public institutions for net tuition and fees and another for payments to non-public or foreign institutions with a cap at $17,500 a year. The bill would make such system effective as of August 1, 2011.

 

The way I read it is Embry-Riddle is going to be in a world of hurt because they are a Private University... However flight training will be covered at public universities under he net tuition plus fees... I could be wrong though, but that's the way I read it and since AOPA likes the bill it would make sense...

 

I find it interesting that ERAU advertises $32,000 annual cost of attendance, however after being accepted that cost is quoted as $26,000 plus flight fees. This makes me wonder if the government might of noticed this since they mention the $26,000 private school cost would equate into a $8,000 reduction in education benefits?

[gary-mike]

I have been afraid of the GI Bill changing with all the budget cuts. That, and my overwhelming desire to fly is the reason I planned on getting the ball rolling on my training real soon. Which may not be the best timing for employment, (I still have 8 years til I retire from active duty) But you got to figure anything that sounds too good to be true either isn't, or at least when the gov finds out about it it won't be. Hope I can get grandfathered in still. It may be my only chance.

[gary-mike]

Hope you are right helistar, I didn't plan on going through ERAU anyway.

[helistar]

The problem I see is Embry-Riddle has been using the GI Bill to basically maintain themselves as a government funded private institution and over the last several years have become increasingly dependent on veterans.

 

Here's a quote from AOPA...

 

The bill, which cleared the Senate Dec. 13, provides that the maximum amount of assistance paid on behalf of an individual enrolled in a flight training program would be the lesser of $10,000 annually or the actual cost of in-state tuition and fees. Flight training courses must be approved by the FAA, and be offered by a certified pilot school that possesses a valid FAA pilot school certificate.

 

When attending college, it's those costly "fees" that most scholarships and some grants don't cover. However it would appear congress has addressed this issue by simply reducing the amount of taxpayer funding to be paid to Private Universities which most likely will run into the 10's of millions of dollars in savings by simply offering veterans the same training through public institutions.

 

People need to remember ERAU is a private for profit university and as such is no different then any other corporation, with the exception that they are teaching veterans a new skill at a much higher cost than what it would cost to receive the same education through a public college or university.

[Tom22]

Helistar,

 

ERAU is a not-for-profit institution.

[helistar]

Helistar,

 

ERAU is a not-for-profit institution.

 

It would depend on your view of non-profit. Bidding on and winning a sole provider contract would be in most cases considered a for profit business decision.

 

"Embry-Riddle has a $30 million contract with the U.S. Department of Defense that maintains the University's long-time status as the sole provider of aviation-related degree programs to the U.S. military in Europe."

[Tom22]

Many schools bid on military contracts whether it’s for defense research or in ERAUs case academics.

[ADRidge]

Am I to interpret this (article and bill below) as meaning that Vet's will only be able to use $17,500.00 per year now to pursue a pilot training program....

Darn, they have to fly a little less frequently.

 

I spent about that much money over the course of a year to pursue my PPL. Taken at a slower pace, that amount of money is still a reasonable amount to spend on flight training. They just won't go from zero to hero in a year. I don't see that as a bad thing, as the bottom end of this industry is totally flooded.

[idaho.frank]

Unfortunately the $17,500 per academic year has to include the cost of tuition and fees. That wouldn't even be enough to cover two semesters of tuition for the academics let alone the flight costs at an expensive private school. Fortunately there are helicopter programs out there that are tied to public schools, and they won't be greatly affected by the changes.

 

I don't think that there are really that many helicopter flight schools that are tied to degree programs at public community colleges or universities let alone private institutions. Just look for public schools with flight programs and you should be fine until the next amendment...

[helistar]

Many schools bid on military contracts whether it’s for defense research or in ERAUs case academics.

 

Tom, as you know, many schools apply for research grants based on the merit of the research proposal submitted by the school, which is vastly different then a for bid contract as a sole provider for over 25 years! I'd be interested to know exactly how many schools have received an invitation to bid on this sole provider contract?

[Tom22]

Helistar,

 

Alright.........I hope you have a Merry Christmas.

[gary-mike]

Darn, they have to fly a little less frequently.

 

I spent about that much money over the course of a year to pursue my PPL. Taken at a slower pace, that amount of money is still a reasonable amount to spend on flight training. They just won't go from zero to hero in a year. I don't see that as a bad thing, as the bottom end of this industry is totally flooded.

 

Problem is, with the post 9/11 bill it doesn't matter if you spend a dollar a symester, that symester coverage is gone. From my understanding as it is (or was) you have coverage for all costs up to 48 months worth. The longer you drag it out the less that is covered.

 

By the way I don't know how you can call any Veteran a "zero" and imply that becoming a civilian helo pilot all of a sudden grants him his "hero" badge.

 

No matter how you feel about Vets having to make extreem sacrifices to make thier dreams come true, remember their GI Bill was not free. Many signed the contract to get the benefits alloted and make barely make enough $ to live comfortably, let alone save $80,000 for flt school. And try getting a second job when you are in contract and change shift hrs and from one shift to another on an almost daily basis.

 

As for the bottom feeders, don't worry, Vets all have experience working from the bottom up. They also have things that set them apart such as Integrity, service before self, attention to detail, respect, leadership skills, working as a trainer/instructor.

 

All they ask for is a fighting chance to prove themselves and WOFT is not always within reach or suitable. Eventually soldiers want tobe civilians too.

[Tarantula]

Gary, I don't think he meant that vet's specifically are "zeroes". Its just a common term to refer to someone going from no flight time (that's the zero) to thinking they're going to save the world by flying (the hero). I think we can all agree all vet's are heroes from the service they have given for us all.

[mechanic]

AOPA is probably stating good news because of this part for one.

 

(Sec. 105) Expand P-9/11 to non-degree granting institutions and training purposes.Provide for the payment of P-9/11 assistance for the pursuit of programs other than degree programs, including for programs pursued on a half-time basis or less, resident training, distance learning, apprenticeships or other on-job training, flight training, or correspondence. Authorize, in most cases, the payment of a monthly stipend similar to that paid to individuals enrolled in degree programs. Provide authorized charges against P-9/11 entitlement for the pursuit of such programs.

 

This allows the Post 9/11 to act more like the Mont GI Bill for vocational flight training. Far as payments go? I figured all the GI Bill was going to reimburse at the 60% rate for my course was in the low 15k range. I still had to prepay the course. I never got to the reimbursement part of my training before my delimiting date caught me.

 

 

[uberchris]

well from what it sounds hopefully this wont affect public schools. im already enrolled in a public school degree program / flight training, and there are a number of programs out there paired with public schools. most of them probably just offer associates degrees, but when youre done you can still pursue a bachelors on the internet using your last year of benefits.

 

however, things are changing, and hopefully this wont affect the school ive chosen by the time i seperate from active duty, but thats several years from now so who on earth knows.

 

also, i can only guess that one of the reasons they caught on is because technically, previously "tuition and flight costs" would be covered as long as you were "pursuing" a degree. so if you knocked out rotary wing training and an associates degree at one school in two years, you could then theoretically transfer to another school like ERAU, and while "pursuing" your bachelors degree in your last year of benefits, take nothing but fixed wing courses for the remaining few sememsters and get dual qualified. this would cost the VA a TON of money...........

[crashed_05]

well from what it sounds hopefully this wont affect public schools. im already enrolled in a public school degree program / flight training, and there are a number of programs out there paired with public schools. most of them probably just offer associates degrees, but when youre done you can still pursue a bachelors on the internet using your last year of benefits.

 

however, things are changing, and hopefully this wont affect the school ive chosen by the time i seperate from active duty, but thats several years from now so who on earth knows.

 

also, i can only guess that one of the reasons they caught on is because technically, previously "tuition and flight costs" would be covered as long as you were "pursuing" a degree. so if you knocked out rotary wing training and an associates degree at one school in two years, you could then theoretically transfer to another school like ERAU, and while "pursuing" your bachelors degree in your last year of benefits, take nothing but fixed wing courses for the remaining few sememsters and get dual qualified. this would cost the VA a TON of money...........

I plan on getting dual rated at my current school with VA benefits. Hope it works out.

[uberchris]

i sure hope you do crashed, get it while you can!!!!!!!! that was my plan to but plans change =)

[gmsemel]

Back in the 1970's the GI Bill would pay 90% of the bill for flight training after a private pilot certificate. Then sometime around 1978 or 79 The VA canceled benefits for flight training for what ever reason, I think the lack of jobs and a glut of pilots or something along that nature. Then new GI bill allowed it 10 years later and now they are doing it again. Well it dose not surprise me in the least. The good schools will survive as they had in the past, thou this time around I am not so sure. Its about as bad as I ever seen it for pilots and for employment in general. The 1970's was tough, seems like a whole new generation are seeing those kind of tough times. It costs to much, both in time and money these days for very little gain. I think a sport pilot certificate is the way to go.

[uberchris]

hmmmm this is something im really going to consider.

 

i spoke with the flight director at my school. as far as public schools go, as of now obviously each state has max net tuition and fees, which varies state to state. this amendmant is trying to standardize a maximum tuition cap across the nation for public schools as well. i dont want to start putting my energy into the unknown. maybe ill end up pursuing a degree in aviation maintenance or forestry/agriculture...........

sigh

[ADRidge]

Gary, I think you misunderstood my post. I would never imply those who served this country are anything less than admirable. Zero to hero is a common expression I have heard used referring to the professional pilot program where a person goes from zero flight hours to a flight instructor. It's catchy and nothing else. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

I was merely saying that while flying is awesome and something we all love, there are simply too many low time CFIs out there, including myself.

[riddlechopperpilot]

There, currently, are no provisions for folks to be "grandfathered in." This is sad and I don't think it will happen. I suggest that, if you are currently using benefits, you get with the advisor at your institution and figure out what to do before Aug 2011.

[matt462]

Hi, I am new here and have been just reading and gaining info on training, schools ect.. When I came across this thread, I got a little worried. My plans are to also use the 9/11 GI Bill to get my ratings. So I looked into this and from what I can tell the cap only applies to private schools. The amendment simplifies the tuition payment rates by eliminating the state-by-state “undergraduate level” cap for tuition and fees. The VA will pay all actual tuition and fees for public (state) institutions for all levels of higher education. Effective Aug. 1, 2011. — Also applies to active duty servicemembers and their families, which goes into effect 60 days after enactment.

 

 

Am I reading this wrong or what?

[matt462]

Replace the current system of limits on payments to institutions of higher education on behalf of veterans participating in P-9/11 with a two-tiered payment system, with one tier for payments to public institutions for net tuition and fees and another for payments to non-public or foreign institutions with a cap at $17,500 a year.

 

Does this mean there is only a cap for private schools?