Green-horn here with a few questions about rotary wing aviation =)

[Vash the Stampede]

Hello everyone, I'm going to do a quick introduction here before my questions, if you're not interested simply scroll down a bit and my questions are at the bottom .

 

Greetings all, my name is Casey(or VashTS hehehe). I am a major helicopter enthusiast, I am 26 years old, do not have any certification or training, but I LOVE anything with a rotor spinning above it that can take off vertically (no offense to the gyrocopter bunch, its just not my cup of tea!). I have loved helicopters for as long as I can remember, one of my first games on my old Playstation 1 was a helicopter game, since then, any game or simulator that has been released that even offers a smidgen(spelled right?) of helicopter flying I have to play, and I'm not so young/naive that I think this somehow counts as any time of actual helicopter training, but I have learned a GREAT deal from it! I've also had many R/C helicopters over the years as well, my first was a Kyosho Nexus .30 when I was 15. Since then I've tried to own as many as I can, but my income level has been not up to par with the rest of the world lol. But I'm finally getting my life in order here, going to school, 2 semesters left, hopefully going to get a nice job soon(luckily my mom has been with this particular company for some time so hopefully once I get done with school I won't have to search too long lol), and if all works out, I'll hopefully own a helicopter within the next 7 years if all goes well =D

 

Now that owning my own helicopter might perhaps be in my realm of possibilities, I have been doing quite a lot of research of my options. And I hate to say that I have already decided what I'm going to do, because it is still quite early for that, but it's going to be tough to beat my helicopter I have my heart set on. I have decided that I will build an experimental kit-built helicopter as opposed to a certified ship A) for the experience of actually assembling one and to keep my costs down as much as possible. Since it would only be for my recreational use, the inability to use it commercially won't really affect me. I have read as much information that I can get my cursor on, and the Hummingbird 260L from Vertical Aviation Technologies is pretty much the bird for me. Like I said, I hate to have already made up my mind without really being in the market for a helicopter yet, but as far as experimentals go there really is no comparison that I've found. Anyways, I'm being long-winded here so let me just get on to my few questions lol.

 

1.) I've been trying to get my hands on as much helicopter reading material that I can, and I just finished reading "Learning to fly Helicopters" by R. Randall Padfield, good book, but after reading about the infamous "Dead Man's Curve", I find myself rather confused, because the author states that not only is it a good idea to not operate in said curve, but, I will quote the passage here:

 

"The FAA has used it during enforcement actions against helicopter pilots to prove vilations of Federal Aviation Regulations. The reasoning, which has been accepted by the National Transportation Safety Board, is that operation of a single-engine helicopter within the shaded areas of the applicable heigh-velocity diagram violates FAR 91.79(Minimum Safe Altitude) and FAR 91.9(Careless and Reckless Operation) because the pilot cannot safely autorotate in the event of an engine failure without undue hazard to people or property on the surface and that such operations endanger the life or property of another."

 

So I guess my question is, how does this affect helicopter pilotes? I mean don't I see news copters hovering over accidents and such? If this is true, if I were caught hovering 100' above my house the FAA would suspend my certificate? Just trying to get a little clarification on this ;P

 

2.) Next question is about cargo hooks, I've seen quite a few helicopters that are "certified for a cargo hook" and such, but I haven't seen anything about the procedures or permits or certifications required to sling cargo under a helicopter. It seems to be like the FAA would have a big hand in something like this and I'm curious if there is a certification program you much go through or how this works? Is it just up to the pilot to make sure everything gets done safetly? Or does the county/city you're working in have to issue a permit?

 

3.) My next question is kind of directed at you instructors out there. Now my goal is to own and build a Hummingbird 260L, eventually...hopefully. Now I have really got my heart set on building my helicopter, and THEN finding/hiring an instructor who would be willing to instruct me in my own helicopter. Since this really would be the only helicopter I would ever fly(unless I end up buying/building another years down the road), I would really love to recieve my instruction in it. Now my question is: To all you instructors, what are your thoughts on teaching someone in a helicopter that they built. Now keep in might the helicopter will have its airworthiness certificate from the FAA, the manufacturer of the bird will have come down and spent a week going over every rivet and bolt, done the finishing touches, and even done the first flight to verify everything was built to their specifications. So if everything was done correctly, and all associated parties were satisfied, would you consider giving instruction in it?

 

That's all I got for right now, thanks for reading, this actually turned out quite long lol >.<''

[apiaguy]

here goes...

1) you can operate in the curve... but there are times and certain flights that you cannot without exposing yourself to faa action... some govn't passenger carrying contracts come to mind with single engine helicopters.

 

2) cargo hook loads are defined and certified under Federal Aviation Regulation part 133 (rotorcraft external load)

 

3) I would estimate it will be challenging to find an instructor that will fly with you in the hummingbird... but it is doable...

 

not to knock you on the hummingbird... but I imagine you could own a certified, already built helicopter for what you'll have into a hummingbird.

[r22butters]

When it comes to low altitudes, and FAA regs, (Careless and Reckless Operations, to be more specific) you have to ask yourself,...is this really a good idea?

 

I once thought of flying under the Golden Gate Bridge (an instructor told me he did once), but after some careful thought, realized it probably wouldn't be a good idea!

 

Sure, I could most likely make it without incident, but if something unforeseen happened (a gust of wind that blows me up into the roadway, or an unseen boat/jetski under me that I cause to crash), it would definitely be my ass! "The potential for disaster is enough to be found Careless and Reckless".

 

So hovering over a residential neighborhood at less than 1,000', is probably a bad idea. Now, if your house is in the middle of nowhere, knock yourself out!

 

As for operating in the shaded areas of the HV diagram,...at some point you have to put a little faith in your equipment!

[iChris]

 

So I guess my question is, how does this affect helicopter pilotes? I mean don't I see news copters hovering over accidents and such? If this is true, if I were caught hovering 100' above my house the FAA would suspend my certificate? Just trying to get a little clarification on this ;P

>.<''

 

FAA's stand on this issue from the office of the Chief Counsel:

 

 

[iChris]

 

I once thought of flying under the Golden Gate Bridge (an instructor told me he did once), but after some careful thought, realized it probably wouldn't be a good idea!

 

 

 

Looks like a Legal operation, under and over the Golden Gate Bridge. Done regularly by local tour operators. Normally done on the north end because of the absents of persons or property on the surface. On the topside their speed and altitude takes them over and pass without hazard to persons or property on the bridge. The helicopter is also equipped with floats.

 

 

 

 

 

[Vash the Stampede]

Good morning! Well thank you for the replies, got my questions answered.

 

To Apiaguy: I appreciate the help, but according to all the research I've done I'm gonna have to disagree with ya on the certified helicopter bit lol. The price of a brand new Hummingbird is a little under $200,000 with the engine last I checked. If I were to buy a brand new 4 seater R44 I believe they retail for ~$400,000 perhaps? I maybe be wrong on that number. Now some would say I could purchase a high-time machine, but that would put me even closer to the dread R-22/R-44 mandatories at I belive its 1100 and 2200TT? Which together ends up costing around the same as a newly purchased R-44, according to some of the websites I've read. With a Hummingbird I won't have such high mandatory maintenance costs. Plus, with the FAA's 51% rule, I can do all of the maintenance work myself. And since the Hummingbird is technically a certified helicopter before it gets chopped up and sent to me hehehe, I can't see very many advantages to taking the plunge and spending so much more money that could go towards expensive AVgas But like I said, my mind isn't completely made up, maybe you could show me where I'm wrong

 

To Ichris: Thank you for your reply, that really gave me a much clearer understanding of the subject. I'm comparing it to driving a car atm: Say you're going 5mph over the speed limit, if thats the only law you're breaking, most police officers are not going to pull you over and ticket you for that. But perhaps if you're inspection sticker is out, registration is gone, and you're swerving around like you're drunk, then they're prolly gonna ticket you as much as they can when its all said and done. That's kind of the analogy I've gotten out of that, sound right?

 

I appreciate everyone's replies here, I was really curious about the heigh-velocity chart thingy. I will be living out in the boonies so I can own and operate my helicopter off my property without disturbing many people, so I don't plan on operating in the curve much at all. The real reason I was curious is, well I play airsoft too. Not the "hey guys let's go in your backyard and play airsoft" kind but the actual military-simulation type where loads of people will show up and we go to a massive 1000 acre paintball field in the middle of nowhere between San Antonio and Houston and conduct these massive games. Well I've always tossed the idea around in my head of using a helicopter for aerial photography of our games. But think would prolly violate the curve too much so its prolly not the best idea in the world.

 

Anyways thanks for all the help

[Beastmaster]

The Height/Velocity diagram (aka Deadman's Curve) is an area where the outcome of an auto-rotation is not assured. This means that you may or may not be able to save yourself/aircraft vs the non-shaded region, in which you should have a safe autorotation.

 

When I'm flying external loads in my K-Max, I spend a lot of time on the wrong side of the curve. I've practiced autos in the shaded portion in order to know what to do to keep the greasy side down in the event of an engine failure. It's not impossible to do, just a little more trickier than your average auto.

[Goldy]

To Apiaguy: I appreciate the help, but according to all the research I've done I'm gonna have to disagree with ya on the certified helicopter bit lol. The price of a brand new Hummingbird is a little under $200,000 with the engine last I checked. If I were to buy a brand new 4 seater R44 I believe they retail for ~$400,000 perhaps? I maybe be wrong on that number. Now some would say I could purchase a high-time machine, but that would put me even closer to the dread R-22/R-44 mandatories at I belive its 1100 and 2200TT? Which together ends up costing around the same as a newly purchased R-44, according to some of the websites I've read. With a Hummingbird I won't have such high mandatory maintenance costs.

 

Yes you can do the maintenance yourself, however, understand that any helicopter has a lot of parts which time out and need to be replaced. In the Robinson you simply do them all at the same time...2200 hours for either the R22 or R44. The cost for this massive replacement of parts varies a bit, but figure $110K for the R22 and maybe $160-180K for the R44.

 

At some point that Hummingbird turbine will need to be replaced, and you can figure maybe 100K for that alone. At some point you will need new main rotor blades, new tail rotor blades, new bearings, new dampners, new shocks, new skid plates, new rotor head, new, new, new.....It's the life of a helicopter. Some you pay in one lump sum...others you pay every couple hundred hours, but either way...you pay.

 

I don't know anthing about the Hummingbird, I can only speak as a Robbie owner. I would bet big money that I can maintain an R44 cheaper than just about any 3-4 passenger ship out there, once you figure in all the costs of say, flying 5000 hours.

 

Cheaper fuel bill as well.....doesnt sound as cool as a turbine though!

Edited January 3, 2011 by Goldy

[Gomer Pylot]

Operating in the shaded area of the H/V curve has no comparison to speeding. The FAA will violate you for any infraction of the rules, no matter how slight. They would violate you for 1mph over the speed limit, if there were a speed limit. The point is that there is no violation if there is no danger to other persons or property. You can kill yourself if you like, as long as you don't harm anyone else. There are also different rules for situations where different numbers of passengers can be killed. 9 is ok, 10 or more is not, and other rules kick in at 19. The FARs are mostly about economics and numbers.

[Vash the Stampede]

Yes you can do the maintenance yourself, however, understand that any helicopter has a lot of parts which time out and need to be replaced. In the Robinson you simply do them all at the same time...2200 hours for either the R22 or R44. The cost for this massive replacement of parts varies a bit, but figure $110K for the R22 and maybe $160K for the R44.

 

At some point that Hummingbird turbine will need to be replaced, and you can figure maybe 100K for that alone. At some point you will need new main rotor blades, new tail rotor blades, new bearings, new dampners, new shocks, new skid plates, new rotor head, new, new, new.....It's the life of a helicopter. Some you pay in one lump sum...others you pay every couple hundred hours, but either way...you pay.

 

I don't know anthing about the Hummingbird, I can only speak as a Robbie owner. I would bet big money that I can maintain an R44 cheaper than just about any 3-4 passenger ship out there, once you figure in all the costs of say, flying 5000 hours.

 

Cheaper fuel bill as well.....doesnt sound as cool as a turbine though!

 

Mkay I see where you're comming from, a few things I would like to toss at ya though

 

The Hummingbird is advertised as having no time-life limited components besides the main rotor blades and the tail rotor blades. Now I'm not so naive to think I'll never have to replace anything at all, but there's not mandatory overhauls. And also the Hummingbird doesn't use a turbine engine(although that would be sweet ), it uses a certified Lycoming VO-435 aircraft engine, although a LS7 automobile engine is also offered, although I wouldn't go for that lol.

 

The Robinsons just have so many mandatory costs associated with them its just really hard to justify just for a certified helicopter. Not that owning a Hummingbird is going to be a poor man's dream either, but at least the costs accociated with it are on a "first come, first serve" basis.

 

And I appreciate everyone's replies here, I now have a much better idea about the heigh-velocity diagram and what's expected from pilots in regards to it

[Goldy]

The Hummingbird is advertised as having no time-life limited components besides the main rotor blades and the tail rotor blades. Now I'm not so naive to think I'll never have to replace anything at all, but there's not mandatory overhauls. And also the Hummingbird doesn't use a turbine engine(although that would be sweet ), it uses a certified Lycoming VO-435 aircraft engine, although a LS7 automobile engine is also offered, although I wouldn't go for that lol.

 

The Robinsons just have so many mandatory costs associated with them its just really hard to justify just for a certified helicopter.

 

Ahh, my error. I told you I didnt know anything about the Hummingbird! I know the basic design started out to be a certified ship. My opinion here....but the difference between a certified design and not is usually a lot of blood spilled and refinement of design. These design changes make the ship safer to fly, which is where time limited parts come in. Metal fatigue is not something that you can see or test for, that is, until it is much too late. So replacing parts that can fatigue at their expected half life is the norm.

 

Not to knock any non certified ships here, but certified ones generally get more hours of use, thus more experience in accidents, greater review, and the end result is designed to be a safer helicopter for all.

 

Non- certified ships that I am familiar with have very low usage. It's not unusual to see an experimental for sale that is 20 years old and has 100 hours of total time. It's not unusual to find an R22 that gets flown 100 hours a month!

 

The Hummingbird is an anomaly in this world however, since the original intent was certification. Personally, I just dont think it has had enough time flying in the real world to see where a weakness may be. Not having time limited parts scares me. Every ship I have ever flown has time limited parts on it. Bearings certainly dont last forever, neither do engines and transmissions.

 

Anyway, good luck with your choice. If you ever do get a Hummingbird be sure to let us know.

[helistar]

The price of over a 1/4 million dollars completed, makes it an unrealistic first project. Plus the insurance cost is something that will shock anyone. There's a reason only 27 have been completed and are flying since 1991. If it was easier to certify and afford, it would be great choice and a lot more would be flying.

 

Good Luck with whatever you choose, however I would take the time to attend an airshow where several types of experimental heli's are represented and talk to those who have flown and maintain them. You might be surprised at what you learn, I know I was.

[rick1128]

Several years ago I looked at a home built helicopter. There are a few designs out there. Finally decided that if I was going to roll my own, it would be the Safari (aka Baby Belle). After carefully looking it over and costing it out, I went with an Enstrom 28C and am quite happy with it. When I finally got the chance to see a Safari, I was glad I did not go that way. While it is a nice design and has many good characteristics, there were some points I had issues with. The Enstrom is a certified machine with an excellent track record. And I purchased it for a whole lot less than the Safari would have cost me by the time I was done. The Enstrom market is quite small and the prices don't raise or fall very much.

 

As for maintenance costs, the Enstrom has very few life limited components and some of those are so high time that they are essentially on condition. The only mandatory inspection is the 100 hour/annual. I have a shop I deal with that allows me to assist in the inspections. I do most of the grunt and dirty work. Many shops will let you do that, but you will have to ask around. You have to be willing to get your hands dirty and know your limits. But I have found it is an excellent way to learn the ins and outs of your helicopter.

[Vash the Stampede]

Lol sorry, didn't mean to make you defensive about it Goldy, was just throwing some knowledge out there for the discussion lol.

 

I think Goldy kinda hit the nail on the head with the "the Hummingbird is an anomaly in the kit-built world". I'd really like to know where Helistar got the info that only 27 have been completed, on the VAT website they claim to have sold over 173, and I refuse to believe that 146 people paid that much for a kit and did not complete it lol.

 

Yeah I surrender the point that generally kit-built helicopters have a lot less total hours, but I also submit to you that probably the biggest market for kit-built are the people who just love building aircraft. I've read so many websites about these builders who build their aircraft and fly it for a while and then sell it and decide what project to start next. Whereas when a certified helicopter is purchased, its just for one thing, to fly! Just some food for though

 

Another thing I'd like to hit on is the time life components you were speaking of. Well the Hummingbird is just a kit-built version of the certified...S-52 helicopter I believe? Short of a Bell Jet Ranger nose to make it look a little prettier its the same aircraft(at least so the company claims lol). So with it being an FAA certified helicopter, all components were tested by the FAA and they were the ones who determined that nothing on the aircraft(short of the blades) had a fatigue life? And I'm merely assuming here, like I said I'm no expert here hehehehe. I guess my point is that if these are truly the same aircraft, the FAA has gone over it with a fine toothed comb and if there was a bearing that was subject to failing after 1000 hours wouldn't that be red flagged as such?

 

I guess another good question I have is that I know about the FAA mandated overhauls for the R22/R44, but is there any other helicopters that have had so many problems that the FAA has done the same thing for them?

 

Anyways, like I said, my mind isn't completely made up, I still have years of sittin around dreamin and researchin, although it is nice to finally be able to talk with other helicopter enthusiasts now. Only other person I can really have conversations with is my dad, and he's a powered parachute guy, so it usually just ends up with me tellin him what I know about helicopters lol.

 

You guys keep talking about how expensive kit-builts end up costing and I'm wondering where this is comming from? Are you factoring tools and facilities to build them in with the total cost or something? Is there some factor that I'm just completely forgetting here when building a kit helicopter hehehe

 

hehe I really appreciate the discussion here though, this is very stimulating for me

[gary-mike]

I have heard good things about the helicycle. It seems like a good deal when looking at the kit price, but I am not sure what the total cost of completion would be. It comes with a small turbine modified from a power cart (-60 in my world). Would be good for performance, but I don't know many backyard mechanics that know how to repair turbines. I also don't know how easy it would be to get parts for them. They are however pretty simple little engines as far as turbines go. Another downer is they are single seat, so if you want to carry any passengers forget it.

 

As for me, I think it is a pretty neat little bird and someday I may get one, I think it would be a fun project.

 

Oh yeah thanks for the Overhaul estimates Goldy, I tried figuring that out the other day... Seems the Robbie I found wouldn't be too great of a deal. Well maybe it still would, but it is out of my price range for now

[Vash the Stampede]

I have heard good things about the helicycle. It seems like a good deal when looking at the kit price, but I am not sure what the total cost of completion would be. It comes with a small turbine modified from a power cart (-60 in my world). Would be good for performance, but I don't know many backyard mechanics that know how to repair turbines. I also don't know how easy it would be to get parts for them. They are however pretty simple little engines as far as turbines go. Another downer is they are single seat, so if you want to carry any passengers forget it.

 

As for me, I think it is a pretty neat little bird and someday I may get one, I think it would be a fun project.

 

Oh yeah thanks for the Overhaul estimates Goldy, I tried figuring that out the other day... Seems the Robbie I found wouldn't be too great of a deal. Well maybe it still would, but it is out of my price range for now

 

Yeah the Helicycle is wicked cool! Its actually the first kit-built helicopter I had heard about, its what turned me to the kit-built helicopter world lol. I've found a few personal websites of helicycle builders and they're experiences all seem to be generally good. From what I read it seems Eagle R & D really goes out of their way to assist you any way they can.

 

But the single seat is a bummer, as is your single seat weight limit(220 lbs), by the time I'm finally in the position to start my project, I'm pretty sure middle-agedom is gonna hit me like it hit my brother lol, so I'm probably gonna end up needing a beefier machine hehehe.

[wild14]

Operating within the Height-Velocity diagram. The limitations identified by the H-V diagram really tell the pilot it is improbable that a pilot will be able to land after a loss of power. They are developed and provided by the manufacturer in the approved flight manual. Remember this diagram is a compromise between the manufacturers’legal department based on the probability that a pilot would not be able to react to a loss of power, recover airspeed and make a successful autorotative landing and the manufacturers’ sales department, whom want to keep the diagram as minimal as possible. Remember the H-V was developed by the company’s test pilots. They are test pilots, they were initiating the maneuver (so it didn’t surprise them, as it would you!) and if they bend or break the bird it is just a part of the certification process.

There is nothing that legally prohibits operating within the H-V diagram, however if the powerplant takes an coffee break and you had no real reason to be hovering over that house, it’s likely you will be facing enforcement action.

Check your aircrafts/ operators insurance policy and Operation Manual if it prohibits operation in the H-V. Dave

[Goldy]

on the VAT website they claim to have sold over 173, and I refuse to believe that 146 people paid that much for a kit and did not complete it lol.

 

Well the Hummingbird is just a kit-built version of the certified...S-52 helicopter I believe? Short of a Bell Jet Ranger nose to make it look a little prettier its the same aircraft(at least so the company claims lol). So with it being an FAA certified helicopter, all components were tested by the FAA and they were the ones who determined that nothing on the aircraft(short of the blades) had a fatigue life?

 

 

I guess another good question I have is that I know about the FAA mandated overhauls for the R22/R44, but is there any other helicopters that have had so many problems that the FAA has done the same thing for them?

 

 

It wouldnt surprise me that 146 of them were still in garages. Like you say, lots of builders live for the build and not to fly them.

 

I dont think the S52 ever really got certified. It was designed to be a military ship, actually a 2 seater that grew into a 4 seater. As far as I know it was never issued a type certificate.

 

Just so you know, it is the manufacturer, not the FAA that determines overhauls, parts replacement, etc. For the engine, it is usually the engine manufacturer. For example, many Lycomings get overhauled at 1200 hours, the R22 makes it to 2200 due to derating the amount of HP it is required to produce.

 

Also, I love experimental aircraft. I have never flown one, and probably never will, but the most experienced experimental pilots I have ever met (including one 20,000 hour helo pilot from Alaska) were all flying the Helicycle turbine.

[helistar]

I'd really like to know where Helistar got the info that only 27 have been completed, on the VAT website they claim to have sold over 173, and I refuse to believe that 146 people paid that much for a kit and did not complete it lol.

 

Vash,

Sorry I didn't answer this, but I've been a little busy over the holidays.

 

Just like you, I thought with all the hype about cost savings and owner maintainability I'd look into experimental heli's. I located an event where a large number of experimental manufacturers and completed projects would be attending and spent the entire weekend talking to a lot of pilots and builders, plus a couple writers from the now defunct print version of Experimental Helo Magazine. One of the things I learned is that if you purchase a single section of a kit, some manufacturers will count that as a kit being sold and advertise as X number of kits sold. I also learned that some of these experimental aircraft have serious design flaws such as one popular versions rotor shaft being updated to titanium because it was elongating (egg shaped) within a couple hours and no it wasn't a balance issue, hence the reason the manufacturer changed the design.

 

Without naming the person who released the information concerning the completion numbers, consider these facts. Hummingbird had 10 flying aircraft May of 2005 as a result of the original kits that were sold years earlier. Now at the end of 2010 only 4.5 years later you want to believe they have completed a large number of the 173+ kits they've sold. That's 34.8 helicopter projects completed per year over the last 60 months. They would of also generated over 30 Million Dollars in revenue from the sale of "complete kits" during those 5 years.

 

I would suggest you contact Hummingbird and ask them for a list of owners who have completed projects and speak with them directly to learn the answers to your questions. It would seem they should easily have a list of more then 25 happy owner/builders for you to speak with.

[Vash the Stampede]

Hmmm...quite compelling arguement you have thar. I find myself at a loss of words lol. Well the one thing I would like to mention is that in the FAQ page they state that they have been active with the Hummingbird program for 17 years...Not really sure how that would linke up with your May of '05 statistic, but I have a feeling something is wrong somewhere lol!

 

Well all I know is what I can read on the internet lol, not at the stage yet to where I need to be contacting anyone yet and getting reviews, who knows by the time I'm ready to make the plunge the Hummingbird could turn out to be the worst thing ever lol.

 

Well as far as the S-52 goes, it is an FAA certified aircraft as stated by wikipedia, used in the US Armed Forces, though it doesn't say extensive, but it does mentioned a bit about it. Ugly SoB if ya ask me though, lol I'd say the Jet Ranger nose really does the looks of the Hummingbird justice lol

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_S-52

 

And there is one other thing I'd like to debate with you if you will humor me . I'll surrender your point that the manufacturers are the ones who set the overhaul dates, but I have read(once again from the internet, my only real source of info. lol) that the FAA stepped in for the Robinson R-22(not sure about the 44) and mandated the overhauls because there were so many issues with student pilots and the 22s, since Frank Robinson specifically said he never intended the 22 for flight training, but since it was so cheap thats what it got used for. So I heard there were so many incidents involving student pilots and the..."twitchy"(dunno if thats the word to use, I really wouldn't know myself lol) controls that the FAA stepped in and did the only thing they could do and require hefty overhauls to secretly keep the costs of operating the 22s up to try to discourage more accidents like these. Once again this is just what I've read...but when I think about it, it kinda makes sense in my head haha.

 

And after another quick search on wiki I found out I was wrong about the overhaul times on the Robinsons, its 2200hr overhaul, then a complete overhaul at 4400hr that basically labels the aircraft and "new". Granted 4400 hours is a very long time, once you add up the aquisition costs, and the costs of the mandatory overhauls alone, there is a substantial monetary investment there. I don't want to sound cheap or like I'm trying to get into rotary winged aviation for nothing, but I think there's a difference between being cheap and wanting to get the best value for your dollar lol.

 

Anyways, back to flying my V-22 Osprey, got X-plane 9 finally a few days ago! <3!

[Oil Pilot]

SFAR 73 was created to improve the safety of R-22s. The R-44 really shouldn't even be included. The overhauls were all Frank.

 

Keep in mind, just because you can afford a 200 grand kit to build a helicopter doesn't mean you will be able to afford to operate it. I would wager a guess that if you're planning this whole thing, you better have close to 1 million in the bank to cover operation, insurance, and your mistakes that you're destined to make.

[iChris]

I dont think the S52 ever really got certified. It was designed to be a military ship, actually a 2 seater that grew into a 4 seater. As far as I know it was never issued a type certificate.

 

Just so you know, it is the manufacturer, not the FAA that determines overhauls, parts replacement, etc. For the engine, it is usually the engine manufacturer. For example, many Lycomings get overhauled at 1200 hours, the R22 makes it to 2200 due to derating the amount of HP it is required to produce.

 

For those without knowledge or understanding of the airworthiness process, that statement is somewhat misleading. It's like saying an individual determines if he or she will receive an airman certificate. That is true, if they study and apply their knowledge and comply with the standards and guidelines determined by the FAA.

 

So it is with manufactures seeking issuance of a type certificate.

 

"Mandatory inspections, service life (replacement times) etc., determined in complying with the standard shall be placed in the Airworthiness Limitations Section of the Instructions for Continued Airworthiness (also called Maintenance Manual). See Appendix A of FAR Part 27, paragraphs A27.4 and paragraph AC 27.1529 for information."

 

"General. Each portion of the flight structure (the flight structure includes rotors, rotor drive systems between the engines and the rotor hubs, controls, fuselage, landing gear, and their related primary attachments), the failure of which could be catastrophic, must be identified and must be evaluated under paragraph (b, c, (d), or (e) of this section."

 

Reference links of full text:

 

FAR 27.571

 

FAR 27.1529

 

Appendix A Part 27; See section: A27.4 Airworthiness Limitations

 

Master AC 27-1B; See page C-83, section AC27.571

 

 

S-52 Type Sheet link:

 

Type Certificate Data Sheets, Sikorsky S-52

Edited January 7, 2011 by iChris

[Vash the Stampede]

SFAR 73 was created to improve the safety of R-22s. The R-44 really shouldn't even be included. The overhauls were all Frank.

 

Keep in mind, just because you can afford a 200 grand kit to build a helicopter doesn't mean you will be able to afford to operate it. I would wager a guess that if you're planning this whole thing, you better have close to 1 million in the bank to cover operation, insurance, and your mistakes that you're destined to make.

 

Do you think you could be a little bit more specific on this? When you say "operation" do you just mean gas/oil/consumables? Or are you factoring in there any type of overhauls or something like that? Cause I'm always trying to develop budgets and figure out total costs and all these little things that no one ever mentions, thats why I was really attracted to the Hummingbird was that the operating costs were nearly half that of the 22. But ya know I've made it this far without a wife/g/f or kids, so I'm already far ahead of other potential builders in a sense >=) hehehe!

 

And by "mistakes" do you mean mistakes made while building(I.E. cutting a piece of sheet metal too short and having to buy another whole piece)? Or mistakes like...not seeing that tree in time and crashing? Lol if its the former, I'll admit I will most likely make many mistakes...but 1/3 of $800,000, I don't see myself making $200,000 worth of mistakes lol, I would probably seek builder assistance after $10,000 max being throw at a particular matter hehehe.

 

Insurance though, that brings me to another question. Now I'm sure in the commercial helicopter world insurance is probably required(at least I would hope so lol), but I wasn't aware that private helicopter owners were required to maintain insurance? I just figured if you screwed up or something bad happened and people or property were hurt, you just opened yourself to litigation? Am I correct or mistaken here?

 

Hahaha iChris I love how you occasionally swoop in with all kinds of reading material for us lol! Definately learned a bunch on those links

Edited January 7, 2011 by Vash the Stampede

[StanFoster]

I built a Helicycle and started flying it last September 1st. I absolutely love that helicopter. I am a fledgling helicopter pilot, but have 800 plus gyroplane hours. The single seat was a plus for me. I have had two place gyroplanes, and have exposed myself to giving rides for way too long. If my wife would have ever gone up and liked it, then I never would have sold my SparrowHawk gyroplane. Anyway, I was offered a huge price for my SparrowHawk, and was able to buy my Helicycle kit and get my helicopter rating. The Helicycle has 250 pound pilots flying them btw. I have been flying a couple times a week here in Illinois, even in single digit temps$ I was the one that had euphorically pushed the envelope, and later found out my upper fuel limit was set to low, which all contributed to my flameout and a successful auto to the ground with a run on landing. I am not the same pilot after that, and appreciate having the reflexes that saved my copter. I let my Helicycle down, and this might sound silly, but everytime I see it in the hanger, I feel guilty towards it. I will do my best not to let it down again. I watched the Helicycle accumulate 5 years of experience, and talked to as many Helicycle pilots that I could. The feedback was very encouraging, and unanimous. Everyone loved itm. Sure, some had minor issues, some balled theirs up due to pilot error, but all in all, its a happy group of pilots. If I have just the average experience others are having, I will have a lot of fun flying hours. I feel and have been told that I did an excellent job building my Helicycle, and I have high expectations of it. Time will tell, and anyone that knows me well, knows I tell it like it is , good or bad. I think my flameout story should prove that. Stan. Illinois

[Goldy]

S-52 Type Sheet link:

Type Certificate Data Sheets, Sikorsky S-52

 

Chris- Do you know if there was a revised certificate? I beleive this one is specifically for the 2 seat original version and not the Hummingbird they sell today.