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Goldy

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So a certain AStar from a certain Sheriffs Department was practicing hydraulic failures in an AStar today. The rest, as they say, is history. Probably wont hit the news much since it happened at an AFB.......just glad all are ok.

 

Sure reminds me of N811HP a few years ago....just change the number of points on the star.

 

Update- Fox has the story now.

http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/news/local/la-co-sheriffs-helicopter-crashes-into-tarmac-20110223

Edited by Goldy
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So a certain AStar from a certain Sheriffs Department was practicing hydraulic failures in an AStar today. The rest, as they say, is history. Probably wont hit the news much since it happened at an AFB.......just glad all are ok.

 

Sure reminds me of N811HP a few years ago....just change the number of points on the star.

 

Update- Fox has the story now.

http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/news/local/la-co-sheriffs-helicopter-crashes-into-tarmac-20110223

 

I saw 811HP in the repair hangar in Grand Prairie a few years ago. They had "cleverly" painted over the tail number and agency markings with black spray paint for the truck ride to Texas. That ship looked moderately "bent".

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I saw 811HP in the repair hangar in Grand Prairie a few years ago. They had "cleverly" painted over the tail number and agency markings with black spray paint for the truck ride to Texas. That ship looked moderately "bent".

 

I saw 811HP on the news the other night responding to the bus crash up at Arrowhead. Thats what made me think of it....and now this. Never let more than two stripes fly a helicopter!

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Anyone care to fill in a noob about what this is all about?

 

(The 811HP Part)

 

It's not a secret, N811HP was extensively damaged during a "Hydraulics off" training incident at Paso Robles CA almost 4 years ago. Goldy, I believe, is just relating the circumstances around that crash and the one that just occurred at March AFB are similar, except they are different agencies.

 

I saw 811HP on the news the other night responding to the bus crash up at Arrowhead. Thats what made me think of it
Edited by airdoggy
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Pilots need to treat those HYD Off operations with respect whe it comes to the Astar. It's not as foregiving as we might think.

 

While it can be seem like a routine operation it can go south in a hurry. Such is why when I lost my HYD offshore, I declared an emergency and requested fire/rescue meet me during landing.

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Airdoggy- Thanks for doing all the explaining....I thought I had said enough!

 

Glad 811HP is still flying around. N965SD isnt as beat up as 811 was, doesnt look like the main or tail rotor struck anything, basically just crushed some skids on landing.

 

Say hi to my plank buddy Vince....

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Airdoggy- Thanks for doing all the explaining....I thought I had said enough!

 

Glad 811HP is still flying around. N965SD isnt as beat up as 811 was, doesnt look like the main or tail rotor struck anything, basically just crushed some skids on landing.

 

Say hi to my plank buddy Vince....

 

The main blades struck the ground and tail rotor struck the ground and seperated from the aircraft. The damage to the airframe is very extensive and appears to be well beyond rebuildable.

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Goldy,

 

Any chance we can get some info on how this happened. I know it was HYD training but did they try to hover, or touch down to low airspeed ect? I am interested as I fly the Astar and will be an instructor pilot as well.

 

JD

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The main blades struck the ground and tail rotor struck the ground and seperated from the aircraft. The damage to the airframe is very extensive and appears to be well beyond rebuildable.

 

Are we talking about the same incident? I have several photos taken on scene the night it occurred and all the main rotor blades are attached and well. The tail rotor is also intact.

 

It appears that they hit hard on the right front skid and it collapsed under them.

 

JD- I'll send you a couple photos. Haven't heard many details other than hyd fail training.

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Are we talking about the same incident? I have several photos taken on scene the night it occurred and all the main rotor blades are attached and well. The tail rotor is also intact.

 

It appears that they hit hard on the right front skid and it collapsed under them.

 

JD- I'll send you a couple photos. Haven't heard many details other than hyd fail training.

 

Yes we are. The blades remained on the helicopter, but several were shredded on the ends. Foam from the blades was everywhere. The only thing left as far as the tail rotor on the helicopter was the boss weights.

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It's not a secret, N811HP was extensively damaged during a "Hydraulics off" training incident at Paso Robles CA almost 4 years ago. Goldy, I believe, is just relating the circumstances around that crash and the one that just occurred at March AFB are similar, except they are different agencies.

 

It's also no secret they've had their share of training accidents around "Hydraulics Off." Management needs to take action.

 

On December 14, 2007,about 1620 Pacific standard time, a Eurocopter AS350 B3, N414HP, experienced an in-flight control restriction while performing a practice emergency maneuver with the hydraulic system off at the Fresno Yosemite International Airport, Fresno,California. The CFI immediately noticed that an abnormal force was required on the cyclic control to prevent the helicopter's nose from pitching up and to the left. The CFI elected to continue the landing with the hydraulics off. California Highway Patrol (CHP) Air Operations was operating the helicopter under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 (Incident occurred with no damage to the helicopter).

 

On July 13, 2007, at1320 Pacific daylight time, a Eurocopter AS350 B3, N811HP, experienced an in-flight loss of control while performing a practice emergency maneuver with the hydraulic system off at the Paso Robles Municipal Airport, Paso Robles, California. California Highway Patrol (CHP) Air Operations was operating the helicopter under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91.

 

On November 05, 2006,at 0924 Pacific standard time, a Eurocopter AS350B3, N109HP, experienced a hard landing while performing a practice hover autorotation at the Apple Valley Airport, Apple Valley, California. California Highway Patrol (CHP) Air Operations was operating the helicopter under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91.

 

On May 20, 2004, at 1800 Pacific daylight time, an Eurocopter AS350 B3, N216HP, collided with a chain link fence while hover landing at Livermore Municipal Airport, Livermore, California. The California Highway Patrol was operating the helicopter under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91.

 

On April 30, 2003,about 1920 Pacific daylight time, a single engine Eurocopter AS350B3, N341HP, experienced a combined engine over speed and fire followed by a forced landing at Napa County Airport, California. The California Highway Patrol was operating the helicopter by the under the provisions of 41 CFR Part 91 as an instructional flight. The pilot under instruction's inadvertent activation of the collective manual fuel slide lock, which led to engine and main rotor overspeeds due to excessive fuel flow during power application.

Edited by iChris
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Whoa iChris! Talk about stirring the pot! This thread is about the crash at March Air base, involving LASD and A-star hydraulics, and you've diverted into a different topic about CHP training. You list 5 incidents around hydraulics training since 2003, but only two involve hydraulics, and one of them involved no damage. Anyway, thanks for posting and I value your opinion, although it is probably different than mine. With that being said, it is my goal to stay on topic about A-star hydraulics and hope you do the same. If not, at least start a different thread, with your concerns, in the law enforcement forum. I value this forum, the people in it, and the knowledge that is put forth, as long as it is constructive. Thanks.

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Yes we are. The blades remained on the helicopter, but several were shredded on the ends. Foam from the blades was everywhere. The only thing left as far as the tail rotor on the helicopter was the boss weights.

 

I didnt see that in the photos, but the main rotor certainly was close to the ground, so I don't doubt your statement. Sounds like you were there and I wasnt.

 

During the 811HP accident there was some deformity in the hydraulic systems. They never tied it as a cause of the accident but it certainly may have been a factor. They also mentioned that there is an unwritten rule not to reactivate hydraulics due to a concern of over controlling the ship close to the ground.

 

Any of you AS350 pilots ever been taught NOT to reactivate hydraulics close to the ground?

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I didnt see that in the photos, but the main rotor certainly was close to the ground, so I don't doubt your statement. Sounds like you were there and I wasnt.

 

During the 811HP accident there was some deformity in the hydraulic systems. They never tied it as a cause of the accident but it certainly may have been a factor. They also mentioned that there is an unwritten rule not to reactivate hydraulics due to a concern of over controlling the ship close to the ground.

 

Any of you AS350 pilots ever been taught NOT to reactivate hydraulics close to the ground?

 

 

When you say close to the ground what do you mean? Hover altitude with forward movement? If so, I more than likely would not. Above that, sure and I have. Goldy, I haven't seen the pics yet. Could you email them to me? jdhelicopterpilot@yahoo.com.

 

JD

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So a certain AStar from a certain Sheriffs Department was practicing hydraulic failures in an AStar today. The rest, as they say, is history. Probably wont hit the news much since it happened at an AFB.......just glad all are ok.

 

Sure reminds me of N811HP a few years ago....just change the number of points on the star.

 

 

 

Whoa iChris! Talk about stirring the pot! This thread is about the crash at March Air base, involving LASD and A-star hydraulics, and you've diverted into a different topic about CHP training. You list 5 incidents around hydraulics training since 2003, but only two involve hydraulics, and one of them involved no damage. Anyway, thanks for posting and I value your opinion, although it is probably different than mine. With that being said, it is my goal to stay on topic about A-star hydraulics and hope you do the same. If not, at least start a different thread, with your concerns, in the law enforcement forum. I value this forum, the people in it, and the knowledge that is put forth, as long as it is constructive. Thanks.

 

I understand what the thread was about. The topic was open to my comment from the opening post with the mention of N811HP, which most know, from the N number was a CHP helicopter.

 

Four of the five incidents in my post were "training related", which should be the main focus. In only one case was a mechanical failure found. Also, the one that involved no aircraft damage had key points that some may overlook.

 

I wanted to clear the air that this certain Sheriff Department was not alone in these training mishaps. Moreover, the truth should never stir the pot between those that seek the truth. This background (NTSB Reports) from actual occurrences during these training operations is key, if your goal is to learn from the cold-hard experience of others.

 

It's not about beating-up any person or department.

Edited by iChris
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I understand what the thread was about. The topic was open to my comment from the opening post with the mention of N811HP, which most know, from the N number was a CHP helicopter.

 

Four of the five incidents in my post were "training related", which should be the main focus. In only one case was a mechanical failure found. Also, the one that involved no aircraft damage had key points that some may overlook.

 

I wanted to clear the air that this certain Sheriff Department was not alone in these training mishaps. Moreover, the truth should never stir the pot between those that seek the truth. This background (NTSB Reports) from actual occurrences during these training operations is key, if your goal is to learn from the cold-hard experience of others.

 

It's not about beating-up any person or department.

 

Ok, maybe I read it wrong and you were not biased/incendiary when you made the following statement.

 

It's also no secret they've had their share of training accidents around "Hydraulics Off." Management needs to take action.

 

You then went on to list 5 incidents, with which only two had anything to do with hydraulics.

 

In no way did I think any agency was alone in these training mishaps, nor did I state that. I'm all about learning anything there is to know about A-star Hydraulics emergencies/training operations, but in a constructive way. So, will you join me in that? I hope so. Maybe you feel that you are, if so, so be it. It's all good!

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It's simple really. Don't try to hover the Astar with out Hydraulics. Also, when setting up for the landing, it's a run on landing so be sure to not loose the speed at the very end until you are all the way down. Lastly, many pilots get caught by just how much work it takes to move the pedals so be ready for it. That is proably where most pilots loose control, not staying on top of the pedals.

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It's simple really. Don't try to hover the Astar with out Hydraulics. Also, when setting up for the landing, it's a run on landing so be sure to not loose the speed at the very end until you are all the way down. Lastly, many pilots get caught by just how much work it takes to move the pedals so be ready for it. That is proably where most pilots loose control, not staying on top of the pedals.

 

I have to disagree. The Astar is more the controllable with the hydraulics off in a hover. You need the proper training. But it can be done and done very safely. Even at an airport I would choose to land from a hover over a running landing if Hydraulics were the only emergence I was experiencing. In my opinion the speed of the running landing adds much more risk and challenge to an emergence that doesn't require it.

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I didnt see that in the photos, but the main rotor certainly was close to the ground, so I don't doubt your statement. Sounds like you were there and I wasnt.

 

During the 811HP accident there was some deformity in the hydraulic systems. They never tied it as a cause of the accident but it certainly may have been a factor. They also mentioned that there is an unwritten rule not to reactivate hydraulics due to a concern of over controlling the ship close to the ground.

 

Any of you AS350 pilots ever been taught NOT to reactivate hydraulics close to the ground?

 

 

Yes Goldy you should not attempt to reengage the hydraulic system while close to the ground at high or low speeds. Any attempt to reengage the hydros should be done at altitude with an airspeed between 40-60knots.

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I have to disagree. The Astar is more the controllable with the hydraulics off in a hover. You need the proper training. But it can be done and done very safely. Even at an airport I would choose to land from a hover over a running landing if Hydraulics were the only emergence I was experiencing. In my opinion the speed of the running landing adds much more risk and challenge to an emergence that doesn't require it.

The Astar flight manual in section 3.3 page 2 says "caution Do Not attempt to carry out hover flight or any low airspeed maneuver as it could result in a loss of aircraft control." There is no exception made for training versus an actual hydraulic emergency so you may not want to conduct hyds off hover training in the AS-350. I'm not saying it can't be done only that it is not an approved maneuver and has led to many training accidents particularly in the LE community. It's an emergency after all why not just run it on like the manual says at or around 10knots to a nice runway into the wind with the crash crew standing by?

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Yes Goldy you should not attempt to reengage the hydraulic system while close to the ground at high or low speeds. Any attempt to reengage the hydros should be done at altitude with an airspeed between 40-60knots.

 

Back to my question.....does it say that somewhere in the AStar manual? Wouldnt re-engaging the hydraulics be better than finding yourself low and slow with no hydraulics?

 

Seems to be a lot of training not to re-engage like you stated....just don't know where the manufacturer suggests it.

 

PS- as most of you know by now...I love skidding along a runway, so its not an issue for me!

Edited by Goldy
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Back to my question.....does it say that somewhere in the AStar manual? Wouldnt re-engaging the hydraulics be better than finding yourself low and slow with no hydraulics?

 

Seems to be a lot of training not to re-engage like you stated....just don't know where the manufacturer suggests it.

 

PS- as most of you know by now...I love skidding along a runway, so its not an issue for me!

Hi Goldy,

I could not find anything in the manual that stated not to reengage the hyds when you are low and slow. As you know it will result in a very large change in control forces that can be challenging to counteract in close proximity to the ground. I just don't let the student get that far behind the aircraft.

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The Astar flight manual in section 3.3 page 2 says "caution Do Not attempt to carry out hover flight or any low airspeed maneuver as it could result in a loss of aircraft control." There is no exception made for training versus an actual hydraulic emergency so you may not want to conduct hyds off hover training in the AS-350. I'm not saying it can't be done only that it is not an approved maneuver and has led to many training accidents particularly in the LE community. It's an emergency after all why not just run it on like the manual says at or around 10knots to a nice runway into the wind with the crash crew standing by?

 

I agree with RTC. You may be able to hover the A-star with hydraulics off, but why not just do the procedure as outlined in the RFM. It is a very controlled procedure as long as you do as it states, "over a clear flat area, make a flat final approach, nose into the wind. Perform a no hover/run on landing around 10 knots. Do not hover or taxi without hydraulic pressure assistance". It seems to me, if you do anything different and the outcome is not good, you may be subjecting yourself to unneeded liability. This is especially true, if that is the way you are instructing.

 

An often overlooked part to that procedure, is "nose into the wind". It has been my experience, especially if landing with any type of crosswind, the trainee has much more difficulty maintaining yaw control. Although, the pedals are still partially boosted, it still requires quite a bit of applied pressure to effect the change you need. Into the wind seems to help out in that regard.

 

As far as hydraulics off during a training scenario, if the aircraft is on the verge of going out of control, reactivate the hydraulics. It could very possibly get you out of the situation safely. Yes, there may be some initial overcontrolling, but I would rather deal with that, than trying to correct an out of control aircraft without hydraulics. In the training environment, it may be hard, because the switch is only on the pilot's collective and you may both be extremely busy. This is where a good pre-training brief is essential. Obviously, prevention from getting into that scenario is the best method.

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