Guest Maximinious Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) ... Edited July 30, 2011 by Maximinious 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apiaguy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 pilot does = slave.... what did you think it meant? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagMan Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 I believe you speak of the same company that my instructor (who I just finished my commercial rating with) flew with for about a year. He seemed to have decent things to say about it, other than hardly making enough money to live on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjibbs Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 This job comes up multiple times a year, and it looks like they have raised their pay and loosened their schedule requirements. At one time, it was a 6 day a week job, for less then 1k a month, and they said they do not want you to have a second job, that you must have a savings or be a trust fund baby to afford the whopping 200 hours a year...Still sounds rough though, hence the high turnover. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjl2001 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Well I guess I will be the one to respectfully disagree with you about your take on this. I don't feel its fair to say they are taking advantage of new pilots. It sounds like you feel this way because of the "low" pay they are offering, the "low" hours, plus the collateral duties associated that include more than just flying. You have to respect that they seem very honest and upfront about these details in their response. It is not as if they are trying to sucker in applicants/pilots by giving some glamorous sales pitch about the job, like say a military recruiter might do. They leave it up to the applicant to decide if they are overqualified for the position, or if it doesn't fit with their lifestyle. With jobs for low-times pilots being so competitive, it only makes sense employers can afford to be a little more picky when picking new employees or offer fewer benefits. They say their compensation is in line with new flight instructor jobs, and assuming the qualifications/requirements for this job are also similar, then this seems fair and agreeable. As for the hours obtained that doesn't sound unreasonable to me either. This company sounds like they are servicing tourists, so naturally that can be a fragile market depending on many outside factors (poor economy, hurricane, etc.). Finally, the issue of having collateral duties is common in many flying jobs from my understanding. There are corporate pilots flying Gulfstream's or Citations that still have to clean up after their passengers and some might even have to empty the lav on occasion. This is just part of the job when you are trying to provide the best service to customers, especially for smaller companies with limited resources. Tuna boat pilots, for another example, are often licensed A&P's and I wouldn't be surprised if they had other collateral duties on the ships crew as well. I agree it would be nice for pilots to land well paying jobs with lots of time building right out of flight training, but this rarely seems to be the case. It seems to me that you are still "paying your dues" as a new pilot up until the 1,000 or 1,500 hour mark. Sorry for the rant, just giving my opinion on the matter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarantula Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Assuming the requirements are the same as the posting for the job I found (200 Hours Rotocraft, 20 PIC R44, RHC safety course) I can see someone who is not interested in the CFI route making this happen. Question for you CFI's out there, how many hours would you say you average/year from just tours? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenacious T Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Not too long ago I would have been excited about that job. At least they were up front about what to expect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) For sh*ts and giggles, I decided to apply to a job posting for an R-44 pilot... I've applied to them probably a dozen times over the past five years and despite having three times their minimums, have never even gotten a phone interview! I've often wondered how I would live off such low pay, but if that's all you can get... Evidently, a lot of pilots have found a way to make it work. Consider yourself lucky that they sent you the app. and job description, this time I didn't even get that! I wish I could apply, just for "shits and giggles". One other thing. If you got a response from them, that means that they picked your resume (while throwing someone else's in the trash)! Don't apply for a job you have no intention of taking! Some of us don't have the luxury to be so choosey! Edited July 14, 2011 by r22butters 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaun Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 I don't really see the outrageousness. I mean it's a part time job, and advertised as such. At least they are upfront about it, many companies will put you in that position to CYA for some fantasy contract that never comes (true story). In the airline world that pay is pretty standard for starting out. It's not fun for anyone but this is the price paid for a dream job that everyone wants to do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADRidge Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Sure the pay is low, but if I had my CFI right now, I'd apply and be happy to have the job. Beats working at McDonalds. You can't log cash register time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maximinious Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) ... Edited July 30, 2011 by Maximinious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomer Pylot Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 You should have known that this is the norm before you spent the money on the training. Companies do this because they can always get people to work under those conditions. Companies don't give a rat's a$$ about their employees, in most cases, they just care about profits, so they pay as little as they can get away with, and offer as few benefits as possible. As long as new pilots keep accepting jobs under these conditions, companies will keep on screwing them. They hurt all of us in the long run, not just themselves, but then all they care about is building time so they can get a real job. This is not new, nor will it stop soon. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azhigher Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Say what you want about it, it's still an opportunity. For a CFI working at a busy school this job is probably something to scoff at but for a 200 hour CFI who's school didn't hire him this is a means to an end, a way to make the dream come true. Granted, in a perfect world the job would pay more and you'd have better hours but for today's market, I don't think it's too far off. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) Being over-worked and under-paid is how you "pay your dues",...in any industry! It just occurred to me, that I'm defending a company who won't even give me an interview (or a courtesy "thanks, but no thanks", e-mail, for that matter),...ah the irony? Edited July 15, 2011 by r22butters 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maximinious Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) ... Edited July 30, 2011 by Maximinious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolapilot89 Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Sure the pay is low, but if I had my CFI right now, I'd apply and be happy to have the job. Beats working at McDonalds. You can't log cash register time. Any job in which you can log time is good, it beats sitting at the FBO complaining about how you can't find a job. Do what you have to do, that's about all there is to it. I don't make far from their pay as it is, and I'm able to swing it. You just have to downsize some. And hopefully, if you do things right, it wont be permanent. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carpenter Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 The job at Old City Helicopters on the surface seems like a great opportunity. First of all, if you are unable to procure your first teaching job then this is an alternative. Secondly, it is building R44 time which I think is better than a bunch of R22 time. Thirdly, the compensation is not that unreasonable; a couple of years ago when I applied, it was 6 days a week-10 hours per day-25 flight hrs per month for $625 per month. You were unable to have a second job to get by. I have a friend who is currently teaching at a flight school in the northeast and is paid $7.50/hr and he is a 1500 hour pilot; so even if he worked 40 hours per week all month, he is only earning $1260.00 monthly. Bottom line is, take the job, build the time, and move on! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselBoy Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 I think some misconception is that an average of 1 flight hour a day isn't considered "Full Time" by most of us and the salary isn't what we consider full time pay. However, you will be working full time by "providing office support to the Manager" and this equals $7.50 hr which I do not agree with. This would be a good gig for someone that absolutely does not want to instruct and doesn't have the loans that most of us have. My loans cost more a month than what their salary pays so I couldn't do it. It is good that they are upfront about the position and salary because it is not for everyone like they said. I recently spent over $1,000 to fly to a job interview, hotel, rental car, etc just to find out they were only going to pay me $10 per flight hour!! They would NOT do a phone interview and requested I meet them in person. I was offered the position but turned it down and I was not reimbursed for anything! Now that is a prime example of being taken advantage of. Yes, most of us have to take what we can get but don't sell yourself short for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 I don't really see the outrageousness. I mean it's a part time job, and advertised as such. At least they are upfront about it, many companies will put you in that position to CYA for some fantasy contract that never comes (true story). In the airline world that pay is pretty standard for starting out. It's not fun for anyone but this is the price paid for a dream job that everyone wants to do. I think I am more aligned with Shaun on this one. The ad is very honest in both their expectations and pay. Many many places I am aware of would just tell you what you want to hear, work you the same hours for the same piddly flight time and then never get around to paying you for any of it. If it's not what you want, don't apply. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) Furthermore, one of the contributing factors to the industry’s pay being so low is a combination of helicopter companies hiring low time, desperate pilots and the persistent job hunting of “those pilots” that shouldn’t be pilots. This floods the market, making it harder for the ones that deserve the career to make a decent living. Love them or hate them, Old City Helicopters is the only company that I have ever seen, who offers a job to 200hr pilots that doesn't involve teaching! Even Boatpix requires 300hrs and the CFI. We can all make a decent living as pilots (even a low-time, desperate, persistant job hunter, like myself),...we just need to "pay our dues" first! My first interview was with a very similar company (only they wanted 400hrs). It was also $400/mo., that's the way it goes when you start at the bottom. I don't understand why you have such a problem with it? this is the price paid for a dream job that everyone wants to do That's actually the best response to this whole thread! Edited July 15, 2011 by r22butters 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADRidge Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 I recently spent over $1,000 to fly to a job interview, hotel, rental car, etc just to find out they were only going to pay me $10 per flight hour!! They would NOT do a phone interview and requested I meet them in person. I was offered the position but turned it down and I was not reimbursed for anything! Now that is a prime example of being taken advantage of. They should reimburse prospective applicants for traveling to a job interview? I've had my fair share of job interviews. Last year I had about twenty corporate job interviews... suit and tie as daily attire kind of places, and that was never brought up. I don't think I've ever heard of that being a practice anywhere. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maximinious Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) ... Edited July 30, 2011 by Maximinious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselBoy Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 They should reimburse prospective applicants for traveling to a job interview? I've had my fair share of job interviews. Last year I had about twenty corporate job interviews... suit and tie as daily attire kind of places, and that was never brought up. I don't think I've ever heard of that being a practice anywhere. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised. Let me clarify that this was for a CFI job and not the corporate world, which is a bit different. I've only been in the helicopter industry a short time but in my experiences and from what I've heard about CFI positions, it is not an uncommon practice if they require it. Most fresh CFI's don't have that kind of money to be throwing away and schools know that. However, they required that I travel to them, and in my opinion any reputable company would reimburse for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) The ad states: “The pilot will work four days a week including all weekends and holidays.” and “The pilot will work from 8:30 am to 6:30 pm”. This is a 40 hour per week, full-time position. The $1200.00 per month salary equates to approximately $10.00 an hour. Considering the FL minimum wage is $7.31, ten bucks an hour is a fortune but, a fortune for whom? Let’s be real here. The company states this pay is “on par” with flight instruction. I tend to disagree. CFI’s make their money by instructing i.e. by flying or conducting ground instruction. The more instruction they do, the more money they make. Plus, the more effort they put into marketing the company to bring in additional customers, the better chances they’ll be rewarded for that effort. This is not possible with this outfit. You’ll be paid $10 an hour to fly or do nothing... Furthermore, most flight schools will pay a minimum wage for the peripheral duties on top of the per-instruction-hour given so the CFI “on par” comparison is misleading…… Let’s face it, a measly 200 hours a year is better suited for a part-time “pilot pool” operation rather then a full time flying gig. Basically, the pay is to compensate someone for the labor to help run the operation, not necessarily to fly. This clearly benefits the company and not the pilot. Sure, pilots must do extra work to help run an operation, but in this case, the flying part is clearly the exception. Let’s make no mistake about this…. As for the tuna boat reference, the pilot who is also the mechanic is fairly compensated for that extra duty…. BTDT.. So the question remains, is this company taking advantage of the low-time pilot? I think not as someone will fit into this position but I also think they are not representing the position vary accurately. It would be better to tell it like it is and not attempt to bait prospective applicants in an attempt to stack the resume pile…. While this sounds somewhat cynical, I’ll say this, if I was an unemployed low-time pilot I would definitely apply and accept this job if it was offered to me. On my second day of work, I’d update my resume and start looking for another job…… Edited July 15, 2011 by Spike 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADRidge Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 Let me clarify that this was for a CFI job and not the corporate world, which is a bit different. I've only been in the helicopter industry a short time but in my experiences and from what I've heard about CFI positions, it is not an uncommon practice if they require it. Most fresh CFI's don't have that kind of money to be throwing away and schools know that. However, they required that I travel to them, and in my opinion any reputable company would reimburse for that. I've never heard of that before. Which companies have you applied to or heard of that will reimburse your travel expenses for a job interview? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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