Flying Tours

[heligirl03]

Yep. Glad someones paying attention...

 

I recall you fly some sort of LE/gov't type gig that is too good to leave

[r22butters]

Sure, a 200 hour can fly a tour. However, a tour where?

 

I've flown in Hawaii, up to Mt. Saint Helens, over San Francisco and Portland (at night), through canyons in Idaho, and of course, along the beach (both East and West Coast).

 

Still like to know what the big deal is?

[heligirl03]

*sigh*

 

I have to admit I'm getting kind of tired of seeing this debate at the top of the list. In reality, it boils down to insurance. Same reason auto insurance costs more for men under 25: historical evidence. What they have seen is that more experience means less risk. In any venue. A reasonable standpoint, I think, as good decision making in general (no, not for everyone, but statistics are statistics) increases with wisdom and life experience. Do the math for your driving risk. How good a driver were you at 200hrs of road time versus 1000? Were you less of a risk to the public at 1000? Even today, many states have driving laws that limit the number (and demographic!) of passengers and day/night ops until a certain age and experience is reached. Should we accept less caution in the air?

 

edit: Just remembered....a CP of a flight school who had been overseeing CFIs/pilots come and go for 20 years once told me that he felt a pilot is the most dangerous between 500-1000hrs and again between 2000-2500hrs, because those are the times when you feel confident enough to think you have the skills and experience to approach any task. Worth remembering I guess, if it helps anyone keep themselves in check and therefore around to see another flight

[r22butters]

*sigh*

 

I have to admit I'm getting kind of tired of seeing this debate at the top of the list

 

Yep,...that's why I said "just vote" . Then someone comes along and says something,... and its like, "awh Dude, I've got to respond to THAT!"

 

The thing is, there's six and a half billion of us on this rock, and no matter how hard we try, we're never going to see everything the same way,...but oh' well.

 

 

I'm sure this one will fade away soon enough.

Edited July 23, 2011 by r22butters

[B-Hill]

and its like, "awh Dude, I've got to respond to THAT!"

 

 

Then why respond?

 

BTW what are you trying to accomplish by this poll?

[Spike]

I recall you fly some sort of LE/gov't type gig that is too good to leave

 

Aaah, two paying attention. How nice.

 

Yes, multi-mission dot-gov gig. Hate to say it (and certainly not to brag), but probably one of the best helicopter jobs in the country. Not to sound corny, but I’m truly grateful for the opportunities which got me here and with that, is the reason why I try to give back. I try………

[r22butters]

Then why respond?

 

Its like an itch, you just can't scratch.

 

BTW what are you trying to accomplish by this poll?

 

I figured we all have an opinion on this, but not everyone wants to deal with the ridicule of those who do not agree. Hence an anonymous poll.

[aclark79]

Aaah, two paying attention. How nice.

 

Yes, multi-mission dot-gov gig.

 

Don't tell anyone where it is, I want the next job opening!

 

I flew tours as my first job out of flight school, it was in the mountains and I'm glad I had the experience under my belt. Regardless, these flat statements are a waste of time, some guys, some situations, some helicopters, would be fine in the 200-1000 range.

 

Just try and stay safe, keep your eyes open and don't get complacent.

[AdminLB]

Are you saying it would be appropriate for a 200 hour pilot to fly tours over the Grand Canyon or a volcano in Hawaii or a glacier in Alaska? How about Niagara Falls, NYC or somewhere in the Rockies? As initially stated, are we talking about giving rides over a beach or a legitimate helicopter tour operation? In my book, there’s a huge difference…. Furthermore, are you contending the advertised minimum requirements for a Canyon pilot or Hawaiian tour pilot are that far off base?

 

I pretty much agree with your sentiment. I would bet most people shared my assumption of the question and that the most likely aircraft involved would be the R44. I know he was not specific about aircraft, but transitioning a 200 hour robbie pilot into a turbine is not realistic, nor done.

 

So my reiteration would be this:

 

A 200 hour pilot in new/less familiar helicopter flying tours in a challenging environment, i.e. terrain, high DA's, weather, off airport landings, high traffic area, with lot's of changing variables.......NO.

 

A 200 hour pilot with all the personal characteristics I mentioned my earlier post.....and.....flying the aircraft they have spent most of their 200 hours flying....and flying short, very defined routes (along a beach or around a point of interest).....and lacking most of the aforementioned challenges......and having good supervision......YES - NO PROBLEM.

[r22butters]

...but transitioning a 200 hour robbie pilot into a turbine is not realistic, nor done.

 

Don't military pilots start in turbines?

 

Having flown both a 206 and a 500, I must say, flying straight and level at a thousand feet for a half hour, certainly wouldn't be more hazardous, than in an R44,...?

 

That 206,...easiest and safest helicopter I've ever flown! (did a ton of off-airport landings in it (in an area I was completely unfamiliar with)). The first thing I said to myself (after "This engine sounds way cool!") was, "You need a thounds hours to fly THIS?"

 

You may need 500hrs to transition into the Grand Canyon (for 135), but those 200hr pilots could more than safely fly a light turbine over the Strip, or out to Hoover Dam, for the first 300.

 

A 200 hour pilot in new/less familiar helicopter flying tours in a challenging environment, i.e. terrain, high DA's, weather, off airport landings, high traffic area, with lot's of changing variables.......NO.

 

Ever since around 70hrs I've been giving rides around San Francisco, (fog, low clouds, a few surrounding hills). Sure, SFO isn't as high a traffic area as say, "The Ditch", but I've trained at numerous airports that were extremely congested (as I'm sure many 200hr CFI's have).

 

I admit I don't have a lot of experience at high DAs, but having flown the 300, I certainly have experience with being at full throttle.

 

Off airport landing. My Commercial training was pretty much all, off airport landings (and 180 autos). Check me if I'm wrong, but those guys in "The Ditch", don't they always go to the same LZ?

 

A guy (non-pilot)comes to me one day and says, "Can you take me up to the City to look around, I've never been there before?". I turn to him (as he climbs in) and say, "Sorry, I only have 200hrs, and that's not enough time for a ride over the City,...now take the controls, and lets go practice some engine failures!".

 

Sorry I keep dragging this out,...but I just don't get it!,...and I guess I never will?

Edited July 24, 2011 by r22butters

[warmkiter]

Who the heck said a 200 Hrs Robbo pilot could not fly a turbine? Its all about proper training and supervision to get it right.

 

Turbine powerplants are a lot easier to operate than a piston engines! They are more reliable and dont lack power like piston engines.

There is one little thing compared to pistons, and that is the start-sequence. Dont rush, stick to your SOPs and you wont cook the engine. Thats pretty much is all you need to know.

 

If you get a hotstart and dont react properly its a lot more expensive thant a start-malfunction with a piston engine. Maybe thats the reason a lot of people have some fear and a lot of respect of turbine powerplants. If the turbine has FADEC its even easier.

 

Enjoy

 

Ps. JetA1 is the smell of freedom;-)

[RagMan]

Its not just about flying a helicopter in a straight line at 500 feet, or over class B airspace, or over mountains, etc. That's the easy part of being a pilot. Most importantly comes the responsibility of being able to act as pilot in command of a multi-million dollar helicopter for hours on end every day to satisfy the needs of the customer (for whatever mission is brought upon you). You conduct this task while the boss above you believes that you attain the mindset, knowledge, and ability to always make the right decision, to always be able to calculate that performance plan en-route to the 1% torque difference, to make good go/no-go decisions on weather, and be able to safely execute any emergency without hesitation, all the while complying with not only the FARs, but company SOPs as well, in order to bring that aircraft, it's passengers and it's pilot safely home at the end of each day.

[B-Hill]

Don't military pilots start in turbines?

 

Sorry I keep dragging this out,...but I just don't get it!,...and I guess I never will?

 

1. YES. The government doesn't have insurance requirements

 

2. The commercial world will always have these requirements

[r22butters]

Most importantly comes the responsibility of being able to act as pilot in command of a multi-million dollar helicopter for hours on end every day to satisfy the needs of the customer (for whatever mission is brought upon you). You conduct this task while the boss above you believes that you attain the mindset, knowledge, and ability to always make the right decision,

 

That sounds more like a maturity requirement. Maybe there should be a higher age requirement for Tour Pilots?

[SBuzzkill]

Attitude.

Edited July 24, 2011 by SBuzzkill

[Azhigher]

That sounds more like a maturity requirement. Maybe there should be a higher age requirement for Tour Pilots?

 

As buzz said it's not age it's attitude.

[rollthbns]

Maturity is not always synonymous with chronology.

 

The bottom line is that the requirements are X. If you want to fly tours, achieve X and the debate is over. I think it is much better to focus on what you need to become employable, rather than convince yourself that you are already there.

 

Complacency is the number one danger (my opinion) in the tour business, and words like "easy" and terms like "piece of cake" should not be a part of your thought process when you have a family of 6 on board who saved for years just to do that tour.

 

Dig in, get the requirements, and then embark on a mission to land the job that you want. If I can do it, trust me... ANYONE can do it.

[rcreager]

As a 5800 hour pilot I voted yes.

 

I do however apply the caveat that it must be the right person. It would have to be a mature, responsible, safety conscious, predictable, honest, hard working pilot with average to excellent stick skills, good judgement and a positive attitude.

 

If a 200 hour CFI can safely teach a new student how to autorotate the helicopter......surely he/she can take off from a helipad with a few pax, fly a short specified route, then return to the helipad and land. C'mon......it ain't rocket science.

 

You would not believe what I was doing at less than 200 hours TT and only about 90 in a helicopter as a Commercial/CFI.

 

What were you doing??????

[Azhigher]

If I can do it, trust me... ANYONE can do it.

 

I dunno Mark, you're not only a good pilot but a darn handsome man as well. Puts you at the top of the hiring list!

[Pohi]

Handsome? That matters!?!

 

No wonder.... All the tour operators said I have the perfect face for pipeline patrol. It's starting to make sense now

[Azhigher]

Handsome? That matters!?!

 

No wonder.... All the tour operators said I have the perfect face for pipeline patrol. It's starting to make sense now

 

Haha, glad I could help out =)

[rollthbns]

I dunno Mark, you're not only a good pilot but a darn handsome man as well. Puts you at the top of the hiring list!

 

The cash is in an envelope on top of your driver side front tire.

[DynamicallyUnstable]

Dude...r22butters, I have to say, you have a scary attitude man.

 

I hate to be the one to say it but I can't help but notice something... As heligirl said, one of the most dangerous timeframes of a pilots life is 500-1000 hours. I heard something along the same lines but it was at 6-700...right where you said you are.

 

The reason for it is that they have enough time to think they are a pretty damn good pilot, especially being at the higher end of the CFI crowd (where they are probably spending every day) BUT they don't have the skill to fly as well as they think they can if there is an issue or something that they HAVEN'T done yet.

Sure you can do an autorotation to the ground NO PROBLEM...practicing, knowing it's coming, at 600' agl and 65kts to the runway/taxiway. Now, stick a family in your ASTAR over the mountainous rocky, treed terrain of Alaska, with a few "holes" here and there that would make a feasible landing spot, flying at 130 kts in moderate rain and vis and the first thing you notice along with a bit of a yaw (the slipstream of 130kts makes the yaw less intense) is the LOW ROTOR horn. You add an element of stress in a situation that is already much less than ideal that you may not be considering. DO you want YOUR family in that machine with a 500 hour pilot that thinks he knows it all or AT LEAST a 1000 hour pilot that has TWICE the experience as the other guy??

Do you really think you have the power management experience handle an EC130 loaded up with 7 pax at .6lbs under MGW at 8000' DA, landing to a spot with no good EP LZ? Ya, I flew 300's too and I did a mountain course where we RAN OUT of power. It's different when you are running out of power going to an LZ where you know you're going to be out of power and can do a nice smooth run on landing. That's not the same man, trust me. BTW, overlimit that aircraft and you're FIRED.

 

Don't get me wrong, I thought I could fly pretty damn well at 500 hours and I may have been a hazard to myself BUT since then, I have learned that I was FAR from knowing it all. I have learned SOOOOOO much since just starting 135 ops that it's unreal. You'll be surprised. I STILL learn and would never call ANY job that I haven't done "easy" or "I could do that no problem." Yes, I was doing the same things you said you're doing at the same hour mark but I was humble enough to know that I wasn't half the pilot I hoped to one day become.

 

As someone else said, maybe complacency is the biggest battle you have to deal with from a job that's "cake," but complacency kills. Every job will have their challenges and as you build your time and experience, you will learn that. I understand that you are frustrated with where you are not being able to progress forward at a reasonable pace (I've seen your other posts) but these requirements just might save your life.

 

Good luck

[r22butters]

Taking passengers up for a sight-seeing flight in "moderate rain and vis",...and I have the "scary attitude"?

 

DO you want YOUR family in that machine with a 500 hour pilot that thinks he knows it all or AT LEAST a 1000 hour pilot that has TWICE the experience as the other guy??

 

With that philosophy, I'd rather have my family in that machine with a 5000hr pilot!,...but then where would you 1000hr guys go to build that time?

 

I'd also feel better training with a CFI who had 10,000hrs!,...so now, where do you start?

Edited August 2, 2011 by r22butters

[DynamicallyUnstable]

Taking passengers up for a sight-seeing flight in "moderate rain and vis",...and I have the "scary attitude"?

 

 

 

With that philosophy, I'd rather have my family in that machine with a 5000hr pilot!,...but then where would you 1000hr guys go to build that time?

 

I'd also feel better training with a CFI who had 10,000hrs!,...so now, where do you start?

<_>

 

Really, that's all you got from what I said? Whew, why do I waste my time....