r22butters Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Really, that's all you got from what I said? Whew, why do I waste my time.... What do you expect, when you start with an insult? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Hill Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) I don't know why anyone bothers to respond to Butters anymore. Even with his poor attitude people have STILL tried to help get him going (including me) and he is only full of excuses why he can't or won't do what it takes. At this point his posts are self-serving and even further reflect a bad match for this industry. Sorry man, time to move on. Edited August 3, 2011 by B-Hill 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Hill Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) . Edited August 3, 2011 by B-Hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted August 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 I don't know why anyone bothers to respond to Butters anymore. Even with his poor attitude people have STILL tried to help get him going (including me) and he is only full of excuses why he can't or won't do what it takes. At this point his posts are self-serving and even further reflect a bad match for this industry. Sorry man, time to move on. I appreciate you offering to help,...not really sure where this is coming from though, but,...oh' well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollthbns Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 I appreciate you offering to help,...not really sure where this is coming from though, but,...oh' well. In my humble opinion, one of the most important attributes for any of us pilots to have is teachability. I have discovered that I can learn from 200 hours pilots, new pilots, 10,000 hour pilots and anything in between. When I start looking at pilots that I would like to hire, this is one of the many criteria that is evaluated. Is this person teachable? Are they hungry to continue learning? Sometimes, the best "stick" makes the worst pilot. There is a difference between flying helicopters and becoming a professional pilot. And I think that all of the professional pilots on this forum will agree that we are all still earnestly working on becoming professional pilots. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted August 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 In my humble opinion, one of the most important attributes for any of us pilots to have is teachability. I have discovered that I can learn from 200 hours pilots, new pilots, 10,000 hour pilots and anything in between. When I start looking at pilots that I would like to hire, this is one of the many criteria that is evaluated. Is this person teachable? Are they hungry to continue learning? Sometimes, the best "stick" makes the worst pilot. There is a difference between flying helicopters and becoming a professional pilot. And I think that all of the professional pilots on this forum will agree that we are all still earnestly working on becoming professional pilots. Last month I attended the RHC Safety Course (for the 4th time) and still took several notes. Last year I took a 'touchdown autorotations' course. And every few weeks (for the past 5 yrs) I review a number of topics. In a couple of months I plan on giving the CFI rating one last shot. If these are the actions of someone who feels they are done learning, and therefore unteachable, then I am truly lost? If your post was not aimed at me (even though I was who you quoted) then forgive me, for I am tired of being refered to as a know-it-all low-timer, who thinks he's better than he actually is. You may contine with the 'red' marks, and have a nice day! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) I think that all of the professional pilots on this forum will agree that we are all still earnestly working on becoming professional pilots. Its a never ending learning process. Once you believe youve conquered it, youre dead. A while back, I had a conversation with an unemployed 1200 hour pilot and his position was; the only difference between him (at 1200 hours) and me (7000 hours at the time) was 5800 hours and nothing else. This person was/is so convinced of this; he rejected anything and everything I offered on the subject. This occurred a few years ago and hes still unemployed at 1200 hours. You can lead a horse….. Edited August 3, 2011 by Spike 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helistar Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 It’s a never ending learning process. Once you believe you’ve conquered it, you’re dead. A while back, I had a conversation with an unemployed 1200 hour pilot and his position was; the only difference between him (at 1200 hours) and me (7000 hours at the time) was 5800 hours and nothing else. This person was/is so convinced of this; he rejected anything and everything I offered on the subject. This occurred a few years ago and he’s still unemployed at 1200 hours. You can lead a horse….. The sad part is the guy is probably running around blaming the industry for his lack of common sense... It's like I keep saying, I live in the me generation where most people my age feel just because they showed up and attended school they know everything and are owed something... It's amazing because I run into this type of attitude/arrogance several times a week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 (edited) It seems as though some on here overate flight time and try to automatically equate it with superior skills. Let's face it: we're all one dumb mistake away from being in a NTSB report. We started out discussing whether a pilot can fly tours in a recip (that they would have a fair amount of time in). Now we're asking whether the same pilot should be flying a turbine in Alaska? High time pilots make dumb mistakes that kill people. Low time pilots make dumb mistakes that kill people. Let's not assume the high time pilot will handle an emergency any better than a lower time pilot. The emergency is not what will kill you, anyway. It's a stupid mistake in judgement that puts you into a bad situation that will most likely kill you. Can you teach good judgement? I really don't think so. A good pilot will be a good pilot after a few hundred hours. An engine failure, to anyone that's been in this game for a while, really should be the least of you worries. I am not saying you should not be prepared for it, though. Mr. butters, to me, does not seem to have a dangerous attitude, either. I have a fair amount of time, but I have flown the same hour over and over again many times, as most of us (other than instructors) do. This ain't rocket science, people. Edited August 3, 2011 by helonorth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DynamicallyUnstable Posted August 3, 2011 Report Share Posted August 3, 2011 We started out discussing whether a pilot can fly tours in a recip I missed that specification. Looked like it was just about "Tours" which I believe that most of them are not conducted in recips but turbines in places that happen to have more challenging terrain...but my thoughts still stand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollthbns Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 Last month I attended the RHC Safety Course (for the 4th time) and still took several notes. Last year I took a 'touchdown autorotations' course. And every few weeks (for the past 5 yrs) I review a number of topics. In a couple of months I plan on giving the CFI rating one last shot. If these are the actions of someone who feels they are done learning, and therefore unteachable, then I am truly lost? If your post was not aimed at me (even though I was who you quoted) then forgive me, for I am tired of being refered to as a know-it-all low-timer, who thinks he's better than he actually is. You may contine with the 'red' marks, and have a nice day! Awesome. Continuing learning your craft! My post was general in nature. My comments could apply to anyone, including myself! The term "teachable" is also quite general. It is not limited to flight training. A career in helicopters is something that is developed. You develop not only your flying skills and judgement, but also your personal brand. You will be known for something. It is up to you to determine what that something is! You can learn from anyone who has gone before you, and even people coming up behind you. I learn from others experiences all the time. I think that is what most people are trying to convey here. They are giving you examples that they feel will benefit you. Fly safe! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted August 4, 2011 Report Share Posted August 4, 2011 (edited) It seems as though some on here overate flight time and try to automatically equate it with superior skills. Let's face it: we're all one dumb mistake away from being in a NTSB report. We started out discussing whether a pilot can fly tours in a recip (that they would have a fair amount of time in). Now we're asking whether the same pilot should be flying a turbine in Alaska? High time pilots make dumb mistakes that kill people. Low time pilots make dumb mistakes that kill people. Let's not assume the high time pilot will handle an emergency any better than a lower time pilot. The emergency is not what will kill you, anyway. It's a stupid mistake in judgement that puts you into a bad situation that will most likely kill you. Can you teach good judgement? I really don't think so. A good pilot will be a good pilot after a few hundred hours. An engine failure, to anyone that's been in this game for a while, really should be the least of you worries. I am not saying you should not be prepared for it, though. Mr. butters, to me, does not seem to have a dangerous attitude, either. I have a fair amount of time, but I have flown the same hour over and over again many times, as most of us (other than instructors) do. This ain't rocket science, people. Experience is gained over time. A wider range of differing aircraft types, jobs and/or missions over time enhance experience. Judgment is a biproduct of experience. During an interview, Captain Sully Sullenburger said “experience matters”. Pilots are human. Mistakes can happen to anyone. This goes with out saying. However, mistakes provide a higher level learning experience. Pilots who’ve experienced in-flight emergences are better prepared for the next in-flight emergency. During an in-flight engine failure, entering the auto is automatic and is only a minor fraction of the total event…. Beyond a couple thousand hours, the skills learned usually remain what they are throughout a career and are seldom superior. In life itself, there will always be someone who can do it better…. Superiority is a mindset, not a skill. The question which started the thread states “Can a 200 hour pilot fly tours safely?” The question does not discern between the type of aircraft flown or where the “tour” was taking place. The folks who replied with differing opinions didn’t read into the question or provide caveats. True, this isn’t rocket science. However, some opinions presented are not based in reality. Reality is a requirement to dig a ditch as well as to build a rocket. Flying helicopters is somewhere in between….. Edited August 4, 2011 by Spike 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 I assume the reasoning behind the initial posting is that butters being a relatively low time pilot would like the oppurtunity to fly "in the ditch". Although I have no idea what his skill level is (or is not) I think its reasonable to believe the ability of a pilot to safely fly is going to depend on the idividual regardless of how many hours they have. It would make sense though that more experince would make a better pilot. I don't believe though the hiring requirements are to keep low time pilots out its just that the companies hiring can afford to demand higher hours because of the number of pilots they need versus the biblical flood of resumes they are receiving. So to me its a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted October 30, 2011 Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 by the way sorry to revive a dead topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted October 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2011 Actually, the reasoning behind this (and its related) thread, was in response to another thread which was complaining about a company who was hiring 200hr pilots to fly Tours in Florida. One of the comments was "A 200hr pilot should not be flying Tours". And thus, the argument began. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 Ah I see. I was thinking of the more sought after turbine tours such as the grand canyon and alaska. I'm a little familar with those tours in Florida but not your specific company. For the most part its relatively simple flying in ideal weather around the coast. The operators near me tend to do them in addition to utility and flight school work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted October 31, 2011 Report Share Posted October 31, 2011 It would have to be a mature, responsible, safety conscious, predictable, honest, hard working pilot with average to excellent stick skills, good judgement and a positive attitude.. Ah shucks.....thanks Lyn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostHeliBoy Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Attitude and persistence! attitude and persistence! That means a GOOD attitude and that means a good attitude most days .. and remembering that Work in the helicopter industry is about change and being adaptive and always trying your hardest to say "yes" to the client, the employer, and yourself! Flying the Canyon is a certian kind of job.. you host a large amount of flying guests.. you work with sometimes a large amount of co-workers. The manner in which you treat these other people both the paying public and the folks that are also collecting a paycheck is the difference in staying happy flying circles, and going nutz telling off jokes to anyone that will listen about how its all right turns.. (not entirely true).. Saying that flying tours is not challenging is not completely true. some days its installed avionic gremlins.. deal with it, change things, and move on.. some days its weather.. Wind, Rain, Snow or monsoons shall not hamper the delivery of tours. Flying a helicopter in winds that are gusting up to 50Kts can be challenging and exciting. Flying a helicopter close the AUGW at a High DA can be challenging. Flying a multitude of non english speaking guests can be interesting! Staying Positive is the difference between looking at flying the canyon as a time building exercise that can't be over fast enough, or an experience that can be fulfilling and interesting and educational! why are you flying? 200HR pilot fly tours? .. insurance companies dictate some requirements, matureity others. depends on the pilot and the company.. instead of asking if others "could". ask your self if you would. or would have? do you (did you) have the confidence to take the responsibility for up to six or more other LIVES and countless others under you when you fly. what attitudes influence your decisions when you fly? Nuff soapbox... goodday.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 One of the comments was "A 200hr pilot should not be flying Tours". And thus, the argument began. Interestingly, you wouldn't even meet the bare minimum in a fixed wing to conduct VFR Part 135 tours without 500 hours, to fly a single engine piston airplane. 500 hours isn't much. Then again, you'd need at least 250 hours to get a basic commercial certificate in a fixed wing, too. At 200 hours you should really just concentrate on learning how to fly, despite your self-serving thinking about just how advanced you perceive yourself to be. It's good that you're seeking ongoing training. Everyone should. Presently, you really need to hammer out that CFI and to get to work learning. You might have thought I was going to say "get to work teaching." If you can teach, do that, but while you're doing that, what you'll mostly be doing is...learning. I wouldn't put my family nor my dog in a fixed wing or helicopter for a grand canyon tour, with a 200 hour pilot. No way, no how. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Oh no! Not the "mostly what you be doing as an instructor is learning" thing again! It's not that complicated. If it is, you're doing it wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 It's "what you'll be doing" Just repaying the favor....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 For all intensive purposes! I should have said I was paraphrasing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 For all intensive purposes! Nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r22butters Posted December 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 I wouldn't put my family nor my dog in a fixed wing or helicopter for a grand canyon tour, with a 200 hour pilot. No way, no how. The only pilot in the cockpit, only one set of controls, a larger/more stable aircraft, and a high-inertia rotor,...performing the same flight over and over, no practice autos, no practice running landings, no wild hovering buy an unrated pilot, no grabbing the contols just before he kills you both! I guess I will just never understand why this is soooo unacceptable for the 200hr pilot, but teaching in an R22 is!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Just because it is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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