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Private rating check ride - what did you spend, time and/or dollar-wise?


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I think a lot of accidents are pilot error and not the fault of the airframe, whatever that airframe might be. A person who is careless is gonna go IMC, hit wires, run out of fuel, etc, in anything they fly if they dont plan or fly recklessly.

 

If a particular helicopter had tons of accidents due to manufacturing, such as blades flying off, engines blowing up, tailbooms falling off, or things like that, then I would certainly use those statistics as a guide for picking a helicopter to avoid. On the other hand, accidents due to pilot error or negligence are not something I would take into account. If both categories are equal I would choose based on other reasons such as availability, and which one looks nicer :-)

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Not to spell it out but the long and short of it comes down to, yep, business. Longer learning curve = more money. Period. I honestly wouldnt mind the 22 for my entire training IF it didnt cost nearly as much or as much as the Schweizer. Since it does however, im not so sure where the Robinson advocates' arguments are founded. Definitely not on fact as we've all seen the statistics but rather, on scare tactics that you wont get a job after Schweizer training, and other idealogies and feelings, etc etc.

 

In my opinion,

 

Not to beat the dead horse, it’s just I have nutten else better to do at the moment. The “learning curve” is the same for all machines. As I said, most schools take the SFAR requirement and work backwards. Simply put, if you need a total of 200 hours to be employable and 50 needs to be in the Robinson, then what’s the rush? Today, there is no effort put in to meet a lower minimum. At the school where I taught, there was an unspoken goal to get your students through the private in the lowest amount of hours. Fifty hours in the R22 was the average. That is, average for a school which operated 18 helicopters that flew all-day-every-day meaning; lots of students…..

 

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending how you look at it) today’s students must have that 200 hours total time and 50 of those hours in the Robinson to be marketable for employment. The combination of time between the R22 and 300 is up to you as long as you meet the above minimum. If you talk with any of the legit major player in the training sector, that is what they will tell you. Personally, I’d spend the majority of time in the R22 just because it’s faster, which means more can be done in a single lesson…..

 

Good luck.

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I’d spend the majority of time in the R22 just because it’s faster, which means more can be done in a single lesson…..

 

Its funny you should mention that. I remember once during training in the R22 we passed up a 300 that was on route to the same airport. We did three trips around the pattern, and as we were about to leave, we heard the 300 over the radio calling for its initial approach to the area!

 

And once while training in the 300 I remember thinking that its taking so long just to get to the practice area that we're not gonna have a whole lot of time there to do much!

 

If R22 schools are making money off the SFAR requirenent of 200hrs, then the 300 schools are certainly making money off of the extra travel time!

 

I guess the students just can't win?

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Its funny you should mention that. I remember once during training in the R22 we passed up a 300 that was on route to the same airport. We did three trips around the pattern, and as we were about to leave, we heard the 300 over the radio calling for its initial approach to the area!

 

And once while training in the 300 I remember thinking that its taking so long just to get to the practice area that we're not gonna have a whole lot of time there to do much!

 

If R22 schools are making money off the SFAR requirenent of 200hrs, then the 300 schools are certainly making money off of the extra travel time!

 

I guess the students just can't win?

 

I think you are exaggerating a bit.. For one, the 300 is not that much slower. You can get it up to 80 knots. You just feel like you are looking straight down. Also, the R22 school that I did most of my training at only had Private students fly 70 KIAS. That's only 5 Knots faster than what I have my student's fly in the 300. Yes, the R22 is faster and has better fuel efficiency. Does that necessarily make it a better trainer? Still, I think the answer is no. Not necessarily. Private pilot student's don't really need to be hauling butt around everywhere anyway. They need a little more time to stay ahead of the aircraft. I did all my primary fixed wing training in the Cessna 152, and that has been one of the primary trainers of the industry for eons. I remember one pilot remarking about how much faster some of the newer trainers are, and one of our crusty old instructors cut him off at the knees with a "Why do you need to get anywhere that fast? You want to have to burn holes in the sky to meet your hour requirements because you got your cross-country flights done in half the time?". Faster is not necessarily better for new pilots. Hours are hours. And I can think of plenty of things to talk about and point out to new pilots while en-route to the training area. And come solo time, I don't think I would want my students in a machine that they can inadvertently go 90 knots in if they are not careful. My first solo in the 22, despite my instructors warnings, I departed the airport, headed south and about 2 minutes into the cruise the aircraft started shuddering. I looked down at my airspeed and I was doing almost a 100 knots! That was an eye opener... And I have heard many similar stories from other 22 pilots.

 

Also... and this is more directed at Spike's comment of being able to do more in a single lesson... I can remember several instances during my Commercial and CFI training where I was cursing how fast the 22 operated because I was getting overwhelmed and wanted more time to set up, so I would have to fly larger patterns, which burned more time anyway... Maybe I wasn't the fastest learning student ever... But I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Edited by nightsta1ker
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I think you are exaggerating a bit.. For one, the 300 is not that much slower. You can get it up to 80 knots. You just feel like you are looking straight down. Also, the R22 school that I did most of my training at only had Private students fly 70 KIAS. That's only 5 Knots faster than what I have my student's fly in the 300. Yes, the R22 is faster and has better fuel efficiency. Does that necessarily make it a better trainer? Still, I think the answer is no. Not necessarily. Private pilot student's don't really need to be hauling butt around everywhere anyway. They need a little more time to stay ahead of the aircraft. I did all my primary fixed wing training in the Cessna 152, and that has been one of the primary trainers of the industry for eons. I remember one pilot remarking about how much faster some of the newer trainers are, and one of our crusty old instructors cut him off at the knees with a "Why do you need to get anywhere that fast? You want to have to burn holes in the sky to meet your hour requirements because you got your cross-country flights done in half the time?". Faster is not necessarily better for new pilots. Hours are hours. And I can think of plenty of things to talk about and point out to new pilots while en-route to the training area. And come solo time, I don't think I would want my students in a machine that they can inadvertently go 90 knots in if they are not careful. My first solo in the 22, despite my instructors warnings, I departed the airport, headed south and about 2 minutes into the cruise the aircraft started shuddering. I looked down at my airspeed and I was doing almost a 100 knots! That was an eye opener... And I have heard many similar stories from other 22 pilots.

 

Also... and this is more directed at Spike's comment of being able to do more in a single lesson... I can remember several instances during my Commercial and CFI training where I was cursing how fast the 22 operated because I was getting overwhelmed and wanted more time to set up, so I would have to fly larger patterns, which burned more time anyway... Maybe I wasn't the fastest learning student ever... But I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

Hence my comment on the current state of the entry level pilot pool…..

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My instructor and I flew at 90kts in the R22 @ MCP. We cold only get the 300 up to 70kts @ full throttle!

 

The 300 is a fine trainer, just don't go that far from home if you're tight on cash!

 

Was it a CB/CBi? Those are a little underpowered compared to the C. Also, was it a single tank? I hardly see the point in operating an underpowered aircraft that has significantly less range. I know it's for economic purposes (I think they were trying to find ways to compete with the lower operating costs of the R22 when they produced the CB/CBi and they just wound up with an underpowered, short range version of the C. Of course, I'm kind of talking out of my rear end right now because I've never flown a CB/CBi). Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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Yep, CB/CBI, never flown a C, heard they have more power.

 

By the way, to answer the OP, it took me just over 60 hrs to get my PPL in the R22. As mentioned, I was at one of those schools that "went backwards from the SFAR 200hrs". We did a couple of rather long cross countries that (looking back) could have waited until the IR/Com.

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Yep, CB/CBI, never flown a C, heard they have more power.

 

By the way, to answer the OP, it took me just over 60 hrs to get my PPL in the R22. As mentioned, I was at one of those schools that "went backwards from the SFAR 200hrs". We did a couple of rather long cross countries that (looking back) could have waited until the IR/Com.

 

Reminds me of another story I heard. A friend of mine told me his instructor had him go on a fairly long cross country during his training (so the instructor could visit his dad in style). The student was paying for the time,gas,ect., If an instructor tries to pull this on you call bs! The experience might have some benefit, but in reality it is straight and level for hours and I think approaches and auto practice would be money better spent. JMHO

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Yep, CB/CBI, never flown a C, heard they have more power.

 

By the way, to answer the OP, it took me just over 60 hrs to get my PPL in the R22. As mentioned, I was at one of those schools that "went backwards from the SFAR 200hrs". We did a couple of rather long cross countries that (looking back) could have waited until the IR/Com.

 

Well that explains your dislike of it. I have not heard very many good things about the CB/CBi from pilots who have flown the C. The C is much more robust.

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The C isn't more "robust". It's essentailly the same helicopter with a non-derated engine. Higher RPM equals 300 pounds (if I remember correctly) higher gross weight. The CBi was built to be a trainer. Range and payload were the trade off for higher TBO's. Two things that are not much of a priority in a trainer.

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Plus, even though the “C” is a proven machine it’s becoming novelty training airframe. Like a Bell 47. Most schools who operate 300's as a trainer utilize the CB & CBI. Maybe this is why this discussion has gone somewhat awry…..

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The C isn't more "robust". It's essentailly the same helicopter with a non-derated engine. Higher RPM equals 300 pounds (if I remember correctly) higher gross weight. The CBi was built to be a trainer. Range and payload were the trade off for higher TBO's. Two things that are not much of a priority in a trainer.

 

 

I stand corrected.

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Reminds me of another story I heard. A friend of mine told me his instructor had him go on a fairly long cross country during his training (so the instructor could visit his dad in style). The student was paying for the time,gas,ect., If an instructor tries to pull this on you call bs! The experience might have some benefit, but in reality it is straight and level for hours and I think approaches and auto practice would be money better spent. JMHO

 

When I was doing my fixed wing training, I was almost finished with my Private. A guy I was aquatinted with had come in for his first lesson. On Flight number on, they didnt do much ground, maybe 15 minutes of intro's. Went out the the plane and the instructor told him the plane had already been pre-flighted so they didnt need to worry about it. So then they flew away.

About a week later, I meet up with him at work and ask him how his lesson went. He said it was pretty neat. Said they flew about an hour and ended up at a nice So Cal beach airport for lunch. He said it was pretty neat because they ran into his instructors sister at the restaurant and were able to have lunch with her. He said his instructor told him lesson 1 was really just getting out and having fun with the plane B) Yeah...OK.... I know the book says to make lesson 1 very stress free and enjoyable, however...

 

So lesson 1, hour 1 ended up being a 2hr straight and level x-ctry to a busy So Cal airport restaurant so the instructor could meet his sister for lunch (allegedly) The student ended up being credited for the time and the instructor was charged for it (from what I heard). The instructor was about 60-65yrs old, and stopped working there shortly after that.

 

Lesson is, your BUYING a service. Be responsible for yourself and your training dollars. Keep your own receipts and billing records. I personally know a person who got a bill from a Part 141 school for about $1500 about a year AFTER he completed his ratings and left the state. School said they noted a discrepancy during an audit and that he owed the amount. He told them to stick it. Know what your next lesson will involve, and talk to other pilots about how their training progressed.

 

I dont know why it is, but you are shelling out 10s of thousands of hard earned dollars, but for some reason you feel like the school is doing YOU a favor.

Edited by Flying Pig
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When I was doing my fixed wing training, I was almost finished with my Private. A guy I was aquatinted with had come in for his first lesson. On Flight number on, they didnt do much ground, maybe 15 minutes of intro's. Went out the the plane and the instructor told him the plane had already been pre-flighted so they didnt need to worry about it. So then they flew away.

About a week later, I meet up with him at work and ask him how his lesson went. He said it was pretty neat. Said they flew about an hour and ended up at a nice So Cal beach airport for lunch. He said it was pretty neat because they ran into his instructors sister at the restaurant and were able to have lunch with her. He said his instructor told him lesson 1 was really just getting out and having fun with the plane B) Yeah...OK.... I know the book says to make lesson 1 very stress free and enjoyable, however...

 

So lesson 1, hour 1 ended up being a 2hr straight and level x-ctry to a busy So Cal airport restaurant so the instructor could meet his sister for lunch (allegedly) The student ended up being credited for the time and the instructor was charged for it (from what I heard). The instructor was about 60-65yrs old, and stopped working there shortly after that.

 

Lesson is, your BUYING a service. Be responsible for yourself and your training dollars. Keep your own receipts and billing records. I personally know a person who got a bill from a Part 141 school for about $1500 about a year AFTER he completed his ratings and left the state. School said they noted a discrepancy during an audit and that he owed the amount. He told them to stick it. Know what your next lesson will involve, and talk to other pilots about how their training progressed.

 

I dont know why it is, but you are shelling out 10s of thousands of hard earned dollars, but for some reason you feel like the school is doing YOU a favor.

 

I guess it all just really boils down to at what point did you realize that you cannot trust your fellow man? If it happens before flight school, you'll be better off!

 

...and hindsight is always 20/20!

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I guess it all just really boils down to at what point did you realize that you cannot trust your fellow man? If it happens before flight school, you'll be better off!

 

...and hindsight is always 20/20!

 

You can trust them, but verify every nitpicking detail. I modified a Gipper quote.

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It really is disappointing when instructors take advantage of students like that. It's one thing to broaden the horizon and experience of a student by offering suggestions or opportunities to the student in an effort to enjoy flying, but to use the students time and money for an instructors benefit is just wrong.

 

Unfortunately there is not much that can be done to stop that besides the student not allowing themselves to be used.

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