Buying your own helicopter to do your traing in

[RagMan]

Nothing comes easy in this world, butters. When you consider something like flying, it takes a lot of hard work (as you already know). There are those who have a heart that pumps Jet-A with every beat, and there are those who just think of flying as flying. The ones who want it bad enough will go the extra ten miles in order to make their dream of being a career pilot come true.

 

It almost sounds as if you were unsure of what you wanted to do when you were getting into this field in the first place. You know what I would do in your position right now? I would go put in resumes as a hanger janitor at some of the helicopter companies within a couple states of your region. Probably look into a utility operator or something. Be able to move if a job offer comes in. Get on sweeping floors, washing helicopters, and just being a hanger janitor. The tools you would have on your side already would be:

 

1) You already have aviation experience so you know how things work

2) You already have a CPL-H flight rating with over 500 hours and damn near instrument rated (would definitely finish that up)

3) Expect to work for quite a few months (maybe even a year), and have that attitude ready when you get hired.

4) Provide that attitude and work ethic to the job site and show the surrounding pilots and staff that you want to be there, you want to sweep those floors, you want to be a part of their company.

 

If you prove yourself to be a hard worker and dedicated to aviation, they might start putting you in the cockpit with their line pilots to start getting time in. That time may end up turning into a PIC job with them flying utility.

 

I think you're taking the wrong approach to this situation at this point in time (actually for awhile now.) You still have options, you just need to take a few steps back, re-look the situation, and figure out a plan of attack.

 

Back in 2003, I worked for a Part 133/135 operator in Northern California while I was in high school. I washed helicopters, swept floors, refueled, helped out the mechanics, etc. It was a blast. After a couple months, they started taking me with them on jobs just to hang out and get out of the hanger. I eventually got a couple hours of stick time (non-rated at the time unfortunately.) The owners said if I ever came back with my ratings, they would hire me on as a pilot. Went off to the military later that year, did a few tours as a flight mechanic, got out, went to flight school. Well, I'm not quite finished, but I'm Instr/CPL rated and currently pursuing my CFI/II ratings with about 180 hours total time, as well as having just under 20 hours of 206B3 and about 15 hours external load time. I'm confident that when I finish up with my Instructor ratings and my aviation science degree, that they'll hire me on as a low time pilot, slowly incorporating me into the cockpit with their line pilots until I'm proficient enough to conduct solo PIC operations flying utility. And if they won't hire me on as a pilot, I might even try for a hanger janitor position for the time being (why the hell not, right?) The whole idea is to prove to them that you would do anything in order to be hired on as a pilot for them.

 

I busted my ass working for that company simply because that was the coolest job to have while in high school, and I knew I eventually wanted to be a pilot. Hell, I got to work around helicopters every other day. My friends all flipped burgers or sold shoes.

 

Now, obviously I'm not throwing all of my eggs into that basket and expecting to be hired. But, I have a damn good chance of it happening. And in case it doesn't, I'll have my CFI/II ratings and I can get picked up as an instructor with my flight school. Like you, I'd would prefer not to instruct. It doesn't haunt me, and I would certainly do it if it came down to that. It would be a great experience for me, and I know that. I'd rather get out there into the commercial side and start learning how I'm going to be flying for the next 35+ years.

 

So, don't just throw everything away because things haven't worked out the way you had hoped. You've worked too hard to make it this far. There are still options available. You just need to do some research and make a plan of attack. Get off of the forum here, and be a bit more productive (that's probably hard to do after all this time of not getting anywhere with flying, but still.)

 

Goosfraba, my friend... Goosfraba

Edited November 2, 2011 by RagMan

[LostHeliBoy]

A positive attitude will take you farther than the alternative..

 

a bit more reading..

 

With a negative attitude we let ourselves down. With a positive attitudes we lift ourselves up. A positive attitude influences our behavior and how we feel about ourselves and our lives.

 

Succumbing to negative thoughts and influences is easy and fairly common. It takes initiative and proactivity to strengthen the mind against negative influences.

 

 

"Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude."

 

Zig Ziglar

[Spike]

Great post RanMan! You are definitely on the right track. One question tho, have you ever considered getting an A&P while pursuing your degree? With the contact you have, you’d be “golden” my friend, for a lifetime….

 

Butters; I understand you disagree with my opinions but against my better judgment, I’ll offer it anyway. Take it or leave it, it’s no sweat off my back and ya can’t say I didn’t try.

 

First of all, I don’t know your personal situation other than you live somewhere in Nor Cal. There is only one legit tour operator in Nor Cal and unfortunately they do not hire low time guys. So, you're kind-of like an air-conditioner salesman who lives in Antarctica. Depending on your age, marital status, number of kids, financial status, current employment status and general lifestyle, you should consider heading out to where the tour operators are. Once there, get a job doing anything at or near the tour operators. Make yourself a known value. Make friends i.e. network and try to get hired into a tour company doing anything. From there, seat time is all you’ll need and fortunately for you, you’d get it for free.

 

However, I gotta tell ya, you scream Alaska. At minimum, go for an extended vacation and hang out and try to get a job at one of the multiple operators up there. Tour, 135 or 91 operators it doesn’t matter. The goal is to get to know people and get into their circle. If you don’t get hired, what have you lost? You can simply return to your life in Nor Cal and resume arguing with us here at VR……

 

Dream or no dream, as a non-CFI, simply sending a resume isn’t going to cut it. As RagMan said, some will go the extra ten miles to make it happen. A non-CFI will need to go twenty… Or better said, ya gotta put something else on the table....

Edited November 2, 2011 by Spike

[HeloJunkie]

Hourly TO FLY the helicopter, $200 per hour is reasonable, maybe a little less. Like butters said, that does not include the cost of the helicopter. That must be broken down, hourly, monthly, yearly; depending on how much you fly the aircraft.

 

Hi Adam -

 

You guys are correct - the $200 per hour is just the cost to fly the helicopter and does not include purchase price. I had the ability to purchase the helicopter outright and in the end, its been a fantastic decision for me based on the high number of hours I fly my machine. The same decision for someone that will only fly 100 hours or 200 hours a year might not make sense.

 

For me - here is another way of looking at it - Even if I were to throw away my R44 once it hits 2200 hours, I am still well ahead of the game. $465,000 / 2200 hours = $211 per hour + $200 per hour operating cost (includes everything but purchase price including all maintenance, insurance, fuel, training, etc) is only $411.00 per hour for me to operate my R44 until it hits TBO. I was paying $595 per hour to rent.

 

Assuming that I take my bird to 2200 hours (a safe bet since I have flown it 1100 hours in three years):

 

2200 Hours x $595 = $1,309,000 (Rental)

2200 Hours x $411 = $904,200 (Own)

-------------------------------------------

Total Savings = $404,800.00

 

Plus I still have a R44 II that only needs a $200k rebuild. Once I start that process over again, the numbers are even more compelling (having absorbed the initial $465,000 purchase price in the first 2200 flight hours) the number now look like this for the second 2200 hours:

 

2200 Hours x $595 = $1,309,000 (Rental)

2200 Hours x $290 = $638,000 (Own) ($200k overhaul / 2200 + $200/Hr Op Cost)

-------------------------------------------------

Total Savings = $671,000.00

 

 

For my type of flying, that is a $1M savings over 12 to 15 years. Plus its my machines, I fly it when I want to fly it, no one else beats it up, no one else fights me for the schedule, etc.

 

In the end, if you have the funds to purchase your own helicopter and and and the number of hours you fly and the cost of rental (R44s rent cheaper elsewhere in the US) and the type of flying that you do all have a bearing on the decision to purchase your own helicopter.

 

Of course, the only issue that this does not take into account would be a large unexpected problem (engine failure, etc). That could skew the numbers pretty good. My $200 per hour includes all unscheduled maintenance (Sprag Clutch SB for example) as well as routine maintenance. I can only hope that with top notch maintenance and diligent piloting practices that my ship will run to 2200 hours. I know that its quite possible.

 

Another thing to look at is the time cost of money. I didn't use my rent money (so to speak) to buy the helicopter, I used disposable income. In the end I hope I will save money, but its a gamble none-the-less, and rolling a hard 6 with a used machine might be a very difficult thing to do.

[richeh123]

this is my first post.......i bought a 300c to try and lower the cost of my training. the school i go to leases the 300c from me....so far everything seems to be working out great. i just got started, so when its all said and done and i have my ratings and i get rid of the 300 ill let you know how it all turned out. but so far the cost is about 145 an hour solo. (component and fuel, oil) school pays insurance, hanger, and money back to me for lease.......

[apiaguy]

richeh123... how have you figured 145? I easily see fuel and oil... but how are you estimating components? Are you using factory price minus hours or what? True cost of ownership is difficult to put down until you've been thru at least a few annuals and even then comes down to resale ability.

[richeh123]

apiaguy....the school takes care of all maintance ( oil changes, annuals,ect) fuel and oil are about 80. and componenet time is about 65. (this is the 145) we figured the component time by what the factory says.....and i did the math and its correct. i agree that resale ability and maybe a few unexpected problems could effect the outcome of the price at the end. the sales market is really low now, i guess im just gambling that it wont drop anymore.when it comes time to sale......who knows what will happen, but it seems to be saving me money at the moment..

[apiaguy]

sounds good... have fun!... if you can afford acquisition, ownership will pay out.... (usually)

[avbug]

Here is how my math works: Our program is $65,000 for 300 hours and CFI rating all VFR. So, after you net out a $5,000 CFI class you get 300 hours for $60,000 which is $200/hour. You have a job guarantee and if you work for us for 1000 hours you will get $20,000 back. Work for 2000 hours and get $40,000. One guy worked for us for 3000 hours and got all his money back.

 

Sixty five grand to buy a job. A job normally means working for someone, and getting paid to work. Someone who's incapable of finding work then, can come to you to buy a job, and instead of working for a living, works for the privilege of paying you.

 

Once that person has shelled out the money to pay you while they produce revenue for you, you're kind enough to start paying them. They get the princely sum of twenty buck an hour to fly as a commercial pilot for you. Somehow in there, you can sleep at night. Truly a work and a wonder.

 

Three thousand hours of revenue flying for you, at the rate of twenty bucks an hour? This is the state of the industry as you see it, the value of a commercial pilot? Twenty bucks an hour to fly for a living? You see yourself as doing something other than spitting on the industry and lowering the bar by taking money from know-nothings who don't know better, who pay you in order to "work" for you, while earning money for you?

[apiaguy]

Dude... AVbug... you should probabally go start "occupying" boatpix...

 

Really, I don't see how boatpix is any different from the other flight schools. And if low time commercial pilots weren't a dime a dozen maybe they would be worth more than $20/hr. (and if the promise of $20/hr is there the line for becoming a pilot won't stop, cause remember we LOVE this JOB) So maybe if everybody stopped becoming pilots... pilot pay would increase. All you flight schools... STOP.

[r22butters]

Sixty five grand to buy a job...

 

So, that comes out to about $217/hr for 300hrs dual. The least I've ever paid was $225/hr so, that's not bad,...and you get a job afterwards!,...gee wiz!

 

It definitely beats eighty grand to become just another unemployed CFII!?

 

As for twenty bucks an hour,...from what I've heard, that's pretty much standard pay for newbies (everywhere)!?

[avbug]

Really, I don't see how boatpix is any different from the other flight schools.

 

You don't see how boatpix is different from the flight schools because boatpix is not a flight school. Boatpix claims to be an employer.

 

Do the local pizza delivery boys pay the pizza company for the privilege of learning to ride their bicycle or delivering the pizza?

 

Does the local high school custodian pay the school district for the privilege of using his mop?

 

Does an airline pilot fork out each time he gets in the seat to fly passengers?

 

When you need emergency medical on-scene transport, wouldn't it be a crying shame to learn that the pilot transporting you is paying the air ambulance operator for the privilege to haul your wounded carcass to a support facility? It surely would.

 

The employer charges the "employee" to go to work, then "allows" the groveling "employee" to earn back the money he paid to buy the job over the next three thousand hours of pitiful wages. Allowing an employee to buy a job lowers the bar, but paying the pathetic salary is worse and lowers it further. Moreover, if boatpix actually paid a salary, it might be one thing, but tell me where in the world an employer manages to con a professional into performing three thousand hours of work by getting the employee to lay his own salary aside in escrow, to have it slowly metered back without interest? What business has the employee pay his own wage?

 

Three thousand hours isn't much flight time, and it doesn't a high time pilot make. None the less, to expect a pilot to still be groveling for twenty bucks an hour at three thousand hours of flight experience is laughable, especially considering the "wage" or "pay" that the pilot is getting is his own money.

 

You try to make a comparison between that, and a flight school? The "employer" in this case isn't a flight school, but rather a revenue-producing operator who is making a profit off the work performed by it's "employees." A commercial operation engaged in revenue operations is not the same as your local flight school.

 

Here, come fly our B206 on a long line contract. How much do we pay? We don't. You pay us. When would you like to start? Ridiculous, whether it's a LongRanger or a Robinson.

 

So maybe if everybody stopped becoming pilots... pilot pay would increase. All you flight schools... STOP.

 

Your rationale for lauding such deplorable business practices, then, is that pilots don't deserve more, and aren't worth much. Is this how you see yourself, or others?

So, that comes out to about $217/hr for 300hrs dual. The least I've ever paid was $225/hr so, that's not bad,...and you get a job afterwards!,...gee wiz!

 

No, you don't get a job afterward. A "job" in which you pay yourself isn't a job. it's a hobby. You don't fly for a living and have stated that you want to fly for fun and not pay, so it's no wonder that a hobby is perfectly acceptable to you. A hobby in the guise of being a working pilot, however, is offensive and improper; an absurd and pathetic perversion of the industry, participated in and supported by those quite content to defecate in their own bed and that of the rest of the industry.

 

A "job" does not require one to set aside the money one will earn for the next three thousand hours of flying time, to slowly get it back while earning revenue for the "employer." An "employer" does not pay an "employee" using the employee's own money. An employer uses it's own money to pay the employee.

 

No job requires the employee to pay the employer a large sum of cash, to slowly get it metered back, and then forfeit a large percentage of it if the employee doesn't complete at least three thousand hours of flying time, either.

 

It may not be criminal, but it surely ought to be.

[apiaguy]

I THINK I know where you're coming from on this... but I still don't get it. May I ask where you got your initial training and enough hours to get your first "job" in helicopters?

 

I'm pretty sure that by any account a flight school is "a commercial operation engaged in revenue operations..."

 

Doctors are (sometimes) required to do residencies in which they receive very low pay (some must pay for their specialty training)

Airline 1st officers are pretty much doing exactly what you described by being paid little to none for the opportunity to gain experience and time.

 

The truth is, that any dreamy profession whose only prerequisite for entrance is the ability to pay for the training, is inundated with too many willing trainees and low wages.

 

If we really want to change the industry and weed out undercutters, I believe the only way to do that would be to have a higher standard for acceptance into any flight training commercial program. Controlling the number of qualified applicants is how industries and professions control prices.

 

Alas... it does not look to be in the cards and complaining about operators that you don't like doesn't seem to help either.

Edited November 23, 2011 by apiaguy

[avbug]

I'm pretty sure that by any account a flight school is "a commercial operation engaged in revenue operations..."

 

The school produces revenue based on providing flight training. Students are purchasing education, training toward a government-issued certificate or rating, and in some cases specific skills regarding a type of aircraft. Schools are not employers of students, and in cases where schools do hire students, the students are paid to do the job.

 

If a school advertises as hiring it's own graduates, for example, generally that means that the school hires it's own flight instructors, who then go on to teach. While teaching, the instructor is paid a wage for doing a service. The student may go anywhere and gain this employment, including foreign countries, and holds a bonafide certification which is widely recognized.

 

Boatpix isn't a flight training provider nor is it a school. Boatpix exists to sell photography of boats, making money by taking photographs and selling them to boat owners or operators. Boatpix also exists to make money from...drum roll here..."employees." Boatpix doesn't hire "graduates," nor do those who pay them money suddenly gain a world-recognized certification that can be used to get a job anywhere. Have you ever seen companies rushing to hire a pilot based on his or her valuable training and experience at Boatpix? No. You may find operators who won't talk to that pilot because he was foolish enough to buy a job and take the black-cloud stigma that comes with it.

 

There is no analogy to be drawn between what boatpix does, and the internship of the medical profession. There is no council, governing body, government, industry standardization agency or governing or accreditation board, or other authority which recognizes what Boatpix does, not is it industry standard. In fact, it's entirely the opposite of what the industry does. When a medical graduate begins an internship as an apprentice getting work experience at a prestigious facility. A medical post-graduate student (which cannot in any way be compared with a boatpix "employee"), undergoes a year of work experience based on a national computerized placement system, and is a part of the standard specialty education system. Boatpix most certainly is not.

 

Residency programs can last up to five years, and are part of the ongoing training curriculum of the medical doctor in a given specialty. Additional fellowships may follow. There is no standard for apprenticeship, residency, or fellowship programs in the industry. The closest that might come in terms of training would be factory schools or certain training programs, which pale in comparison (flight safety international or simuflite, for example). These are very expensive, and in most cases are paid for by employers, not by employees.

 

I did not buy a job. I have worked for employers who voiced a consideration or intention to begin selling training in conjunction with the job, and I immediately resigned or threatened to resign (pending the employers withdrawl of consideration for such a program). I did have an employer once who hired me at an initial probationary wage, with promise of a pay increase after a certain number of months. When I approached the employer, I reviewed the situation, and noted that I hadn't been paid as promised. The owner of the operation replied "what's your point?"

 

My point, I told him, was that I was promised a raise, and wanted it. The employer asked me if I'd go to a college professor and complain about the tuition. I didn't see his point. The employer went on to tell me that I was getting an education from him (I was flying aeromedical EMS missions), and that by all rights I should be paying him, as I should consider him to be my professor and whatever I ought to be paying him as my tuition. He is the only employer I've ever had who had the gall and the stupidity to suggest I ought to pay him while performing a revenue flying job for him. I was speechless, but and quit shortly thereafter. I had no waiting job when I quit, but I didn't care; I wouldn't and didn't work for any operator that has such an attitude and immediately quit.

 

The truth is, that any dreamy profession whose only prerequisite for entrance is the ability to pay for the training, is inundated with too many willing trainees and low wages.

 

Which "dreamy professions" would those be, exactly?

[r22butters]

...Schools are not employers of students, and in cases where schools do hire students, the students are paid to do the job.

 

If a school advertises as hiring it's own graduates, for example, generally that means that the school hires it's own flight instructors, who then go on to teach. While teaching, the instructor is paid a wage for doing a service. The student may go anywhere and gain this employment, including foreign countries, and holds a bonafide certification which is widely recognized.

 

Boatpix isn't a flight training provider nor is it a school.

 

Schools are the ONLY employers of new pilots (unless your very, very, very, lucky)!

 

Boatpix is a flight school, its called Helicopter Academy, they train students to be CFIs, then hire them to take pictures (as well as teach new students). The only difference is they don't start taking pictures until they have 300hrs, instead of the usual 200.

 

...and they do pay them to perform that service, just like every other flight school!

 

As for going elsewhere for work,...well we all know the odds of being hired at a school other than the one who trains you, however, their students also have that option,...for they are CFIs, just like all the rest!

 

The ONLY difference between Boatpix and ANY OTHER SCHOOL, is that their program requires 300hrs instead of 200hrs!

 

At 150hrs you have that "government-issued certificate" and a snowball's chance in Hell at finding a job! You can either buy 150 more hours and work for Boatpix, or buy 50 more hours and work for a different school,...none-the-less, you are buying that first job!

Edited November 23, 2011 by r22butters

[apiaguy]

"Dreamy" refers to the likability of a job based on the requirements to achieve success and the potential for self satisfaction in daily riggors.

 

the medical profession is usually not considered dreamy as the entrance into such requires 8 to 12 years + of schooling, lots of money to pay for the schooling and the dread of working long hours and being on call even though you are paid quite well.

 

Flying jobs ARE considered dreamy because there is little formal education required and the "dream" part of flying around in the air while being paid is something that immature young males often "dream" about when not fully understanding the profession.

[Spike]

The ONLY difference between Boatpix and ANY OTHER SCHOOL, is that their program requires 300hrs instead of 200hrs!

 

 

Why the extra 100 hours then? Is it so the customer/student is required to pay for that extra 100 hours? Probably so…

 

No matter what, people will believe what they want to believe. Gee, I think I’ve heard that somewhere before….

 

Regardless of what people think, there are only a few proven avenues into a helicopter pilot career. The people who are eager to get in at-all-costs will believe almost anything as long as it makes sense to them. Unfortunately, newbies who don’t do their homework remain ignorant, and highly susceptible to snake oil. Want proof? Not too long ago, a flight school proliferated itself throughout the countryside with a promise of helicopter stardom. While this was occurring, many on the internet who understood the truth of the matter (i.e. saw the writing on the wall) advised inquiring prospective students against enrollment. Did they listen? Some did, but many didn’t and found themselves in debt, then in court with no certificates and no helicopter pilot career…. In short, you can lead a horse to water….

 

Truth be told, the cost isn’t the biggest difference in this debate. It’s what you get for that cost is the major difference. Mr. Avbug said in another post; “Build experience, not time. If you're building experience, the time will naturally follow.” which I wholeheartedly believe. Specifically, taking pictures of boats is nowhere near the same as teaching someone how to fly a helicopter. Not even close…..

Edited November 23, 2011 by Spike

[avbug]

Flying jobs ARE considered dreamy because there is little formal education required and the "dream" part of flying around in the air while being paid is something that immature young males often "dream" about when not fully understanding the profession.

 

Ah. The criteria for job selection, then, are ignorance, inexperience, and lack of understanding. By that token, anything that's glamorized by the movies or literature (assuming the immature young males can read) is "dreamy." I don't believe I've ever seen anyone tell me that my profession is "dreamy." Anyone who would describe the profession that way would instantly earn a label best described as "not having a clue what he's talking about."

 

Schools are the ONLY employers of new pilots (unless your very, very, very, lucky)!

 

Luck is a function of ignorance and laziness, while finding work is a function of effort. The two are not the same. However, for those who believe otherwise, the twisted logic of buying a job to account for their laziness and ignorance may make sense. Otherwise, the act of locating and securing a job depends on the amount of work one puts into trying, not on luck. In aviation when one depends on luck, one abdicates command authority for chance; take charge of your career and your life, get up, and find a job.

 

At 150hrs you have that "government-issued certificate" and a snowball's chance in Hell at finding a job! You can either buy 150 more hours and work for Boatpix, or buy 50 more hours and work for a different school,...none-the-less, you are buying that first job!

 

What do you know about having a job, butters?

 

150 hours is nothing. It really is. A thousand hours is barely scratching the surface, but a hundred fifty? What do you expect?

 

Spending money on flight training provides industry qualification that enhances one's marketability and under which one can work. Spending a hundred hours at boatpix for their aerial photography training program doesn't grant an industry qualification. Where will you ever find an employer actively looking for a boatpix-trained pilot? You won't.

 

I've had numerous employers consider my CFII when hiring me for other work because I could provide additional instructing, and it's always been a consideration when acting as a company instructor or check airman. I can't imagine a single employer that would hire me because of boatpix training or experience, however.

 

Build experience. Not hours.

 

The ONLY difference between Boatpix and ANY OTHER SCHOOL, is that their program requires 300hrs instead of 200hrs!

 

That's definitely not the only difference. You really don't understand that, do you?

[r22butters]

...Specifically, taking pictures of boats is nowhere near the same as teaching someone how to fly a helicopter. Not even close…..

 

Of course they're different, that's why I believe a teacher should aquire experience first,...then teach,...but that's a whole other debate!

 

Consider the average first job after teaching (Tours and GOM). Is experience teaching any more relevant to those jobs then flying low over water to take pictures of boats? At least for the GOM job they will be comfortable flying several miles out to Sea.

 

...and Boatpix pilots DO teach as well. I know this because one of the guys who was covering a fishing tournament with us, was also training his student for a rating.

[avbug]

Butters,

 

You're not an instructor, are you? No teaching experience?

 

Instructors administer a syllabus. Teachers pass on knowledge, seek out a student's needs, and meet them. A great gulf of difference exists between the instructor and the teacher. Instructors are a dime a dozen. Teachers are a rare commodity.

 

Teaching isn't about being a great pilot. Teaching isn't about being the hottest stick in the hangar, nor about being the most experienced or fattest logbook in town. Teaching is about explaining, analyzing, and seeking out the best way, on an individual basis, to help a student grasp and master a concept or task.

 

"Being comfortable over the water" isn't really a qualification that one puts on one's resume. It's not really a qualification that is sought out by an employer. You'll never find an employer who says "You know, this pilot has two thousand hours of combat time, long line experience, factory training, and is an experienced instructor who's been doing a lot of high density altitude work and mountain training with pinnacle approaches and landings, but I think we're going to have to go with that guy, because after all, he took pictures of boats and is comfortable over the water." It's just not going to happen.

 

An employer isn't going to say "While I like this person, with his strong work ethic, his solid background instructing and working with dozens of clients on a regular basis, and several letters of recommendation from both his employer and clients. I really do like that, and the fact that all he's been doing day-in and day-out is practicing autorotations, aproaches, hovering, commercial maneuvers, and the fact that he can explain them and shows a high level of understanding and awareness. I like those things, but I'm going to have to go with that guy, because he took pictures of boats and is comfortable over the water." Again, it's just not going to happen.

[Spike]

Consider the average first job after teaching (Tours and GOM). Is experience teaching any more relevant to those jobs then flying low over water to take pictures of boats? At least for the GOM job they will be comfortable flying several miles out to Sea.

 

...and Boatpix pilots DO teach as well. I know this because one of the guys who was covering a fishing tournament with us, was also training his student for a rating.

 

Having done most of these things, I can say without a doubt, yes, past teaching experience is much more relevant. In fact, teaching is pretty much relevant to all mission profiles. Regardless, if you’ve never done any of these things, then you have no frame of reference to support your opinion. Furthermore, operating over water is so insignificant; it’s not even worth mentioning……

 

Boatpix is not a flight school. Helicopter Academy is the flight school who staffs boatpix with CFI’s. Ever wonder why the two separate entities? Both are owned and operated by the same person, right? Sounds fishy… But I digress. Okay then, this guy covering the fishing tourney, he was teaching his student what exactly? My guess is, something he already knew……

Edited November 23, 2011 by Spike

[r22butters]

Butters,

 

You're not an instructor, are you? No teaching experience?

 

Instructors administer a syllabus. Teachers pass on knowledge, seek out a student's needs, and meet them. A great gulf of difference exists between the instructor and the teacher. Instructors are a dime a dozen. Teachers are a rare commodity.

 

Teaching isn't about being a great pilot. Teaching isn't about being the hottest stick in the hangar, nor about being the most experienced or fattest logbook in town. Teaching is about explaining, analyzing, and seeking out the best way, on an individual basis, to help a student grasp and master a concept or task.

 

...and this makes them more qualified to fly Tours or GOM because...?

 

Sure the qualities of being a good teacher are desireable to an employer, but you seem to be under the assumption that taking pictures of boats doesn't develope any desireable skills, plus you seem to be unable to accept the fact that Boatpix CFIs also teach (I know they do because I've seen it with my own eyes)!

[r22butters]

...Oaky then, this guy covering the fishing tourney, he was teaching his student what exactly? My guess is, something he already knew……

 

After the tounament was over, he was teaching him autos, just like any other CFI would do while working with a student on a rating!

 

Yes I know they are two companies run by the same guy. That does not change the fact that those CFIs are teaching (ratings) as well as taking pictures,...just not at the same time.

[avbug]

Fly around, take pictures of boats. Worlds hottest stick, to be sure.

 

Instruct, be evaulated by individual clients repeatedly throughout the day. Practice frequent autorotations. Teach all aspects of flying. Enforce a standardized curriculum and level of safety. Adhere to standard industry practices. Do work subject to FAA surveillance and review on a daily basis, and have all one's effort regularly evaluated by check airman and examiners and inspectors. Same hours, but much, much more experience at the end of the day.

 

Fly around, take pictures of boats. Buy the job. Sole qualification to go to work: forked over twenty to sixty five thousand dollars.

 

Compete for employment as a flight instructor. Fifteen students graduated, four will be picked. Each has to compete with the other. The school is selective. Can the student teach? Can the student fly? Does the student act safely, responsibly, and is the student a consummate professional? Can the student bring in business? Will the student uphold the reputation and standards of the company better than other choices? Does the student have a good rapport with the clients, and will he or she interact well with prospective students?

 

Fly around and take pictures of boats. Build time.

 

Spend constructive hours working to a known standard and curriculum daily involved in every aspect of flying and flight training in the instruction environment. Build experience.

 

Spend an hour flying over the water snapping pictures.

 

Spend an hour performing confined space work, pinnacle approaches, autorotations, landings.

 

Fly around and take pictures after buyin the job, and pay for every hour thereafter.

 

Instruct, teach, own the job one earned as an employee who competed for the position and who must perform daily to keep the job.

 

You really don't see the difference, do you?

 

Perhaps if you found a job and worked it for a while, you might understand. That you don't, of course, is no great surprise, but your dogged support for a subject about which you know nothing is the epitome of professing and celebrating ignorance at the same time. Why be so proud of what you don't know? One day when you've more education in the business, you won't be able to afford such thinking, and you'll wonder why others will prostitute themselves in their selfish curtain-climb to get ahead. Until then, you do yourself and the industry no favors defending what you don't know.

 

After the tounament was over, he was teaching him autos, just like any other CFI would do while working with a student on a rating!

 

The student didn't know how to do autorotations? The instructor took a primary student on the flight, flew a commercial mission, then continued giving primary instruction after the flight? You don't instruct, but this is how you see a proper way of doing business?

Edited November 23, 2011 by avbug

[r22butters]

The student didn't know how to do autorotations? The instructor took a primary student on the flight, flew a commercial mission, then continued giving primary instruction after the flight? You don't instruct, but this is how you see a proper way of doing business?

 

You may have mastered autos on the first lesson, but for myself (and I suspect many others as well) it took more practice!

 

I never said I agree with their business practices, I'm just saying they're no different than any other school (they just require more hours)!

 

As for the quality of their pilots,...well,...from my experience flying with two of them, if my family and I were to climb into an Astar for a tour ride over the Grand Canyon, and I saw that one of them was the pilot, I would have every confindence that the flight would be perfectly safe and enjoyable! I guess your experience with them was different?

 

 

I have a question for you both about experience.

 

When I looked into getting my Commercial in Australia, I asked if I would have to become a CFI and teach first. I was told, "no, we don't let our pilots teach until they have some experience first". "Your first job will most likely be in Tours or Cattle Mustering".

 

So I ask you both; If someone from Australia, who built up 1000hrs mustering cattle, came here and applied for a job flying Tours or GOM, would you pass him over because he never had the CFI experience?

 

What about someone who goes the AG route instead of teaching? Is their experience also worthless against a thousand hour CFI?