New Forum Member - Prospective Pilot

[JCM5]

Hey everyone...

 

New to this forum, and I am just about to take my first introductory flight in the coming weeks. Unfortunately the weather here in the Pacific North West doesn't look like it wants to cooperate for a while...

 

Based on the advice of some close friends and pilots (both fixed wing and rotor-craft) I am acquiring my private fixed wing (single-engine land) certification first. I plan on working towards a commercial rotor-craft certification once that's completed, but have been told time and time again that obtaining a private fixed wing cert first will be a huge benefit. In any event, I think it will be cool to be able to fly both, even though my ultimate goal is to fly helicopters. There is nothing in the world I want more than to be a heli-pilot, and I am extremely excited to finally get the ball rolling.

 

I just turned 26 years old in October and have big aspirations to start my own business and make a career out of flying helicopters someday. I know it's going to be a long and costly road, but it's been a dream of mine my entire life.

[Rich1]

JCM....welcome to the site!

 

Congratulations to you for taking the first steps toward these wonderful machines! My thin nickel, is that you are on the right track taking your fixed wing rating in that there is so much you will learn about communications, airspace, weather, aerodynamics, ATC, cross country operations...that will make your transition to helicopters so much fun as then you're just learning how to fly the machine and not all the other stuff at the same time...

 

As for the cost, it's like all educational endeavors, an investment in yourself and your skills is always expensive...the best investments usually are:-) Keep us all posted on your FW training....good luck Rich

[rollthbns]

Welcome! Lots of great sources of information here. Take advantage of it! (And find a way to give back too!)

[gary-mike]

Welcome to VR.

 

Just a thought, you may considder, one way to soak up the expense is to apply for WOFT. Free training in turbine aircraft, great benefits, and recieve $ for school. It is not real easy to get accepted, and the military life isn't for everyone, but I think it is worth considdering.

 

Good luck and keep us updated as you progress.

 

Mike

[rodrop]

Welcome to the forum

[JCM5]

Thanks everyone....

 

The military route isn't something I want to pursue. To be honest the financing isn't a problem for me so I have a huge advantage to my favor right off the bat.

 

My biggest anxiety is going to be logging flight hours....while my ultimate goal is to own and operate my own single aircraft charter company, I understand that most companies and clients, especially the market I'd like to target, won't even ask my name if I have less than 1,000 hours. It looks like the popular M.O. is to get a CFI rating. Also seems like a great way to expand my own skills.

 

Like my Father always told me...."You don't really know it unless you can teach it."

[C of G]

It can actually be a significant disadvantage. It will not cut your time down to get your private helicopter, as helicopters are more difficult to fly, and rarely can you get the certificate done in the minimum hours, and that is especially true for the add-on. Doing your PVT fixed may allow you to go to comm, but unless it's a 141 school, there is a lot of PIC to build, and again, there is no way to do that without the PVT in category and class, unless you are solo. That's a lot of solo.

 

You will be slightly more well rounded with a PVT fixed cert, but really, minimally so. Also, if by some rare chance you do get your certs with minimum hours... you now have less helicopter time than the pilots looking for the same job you are.

 

Lastly, if all you wanna do is ride motorcycles, you don't need an automobile license to do it, but you can't drive a car without it.

[JCM5]

It can actually be a significant disadvantage. It will not cut your time down to get your private helicopter, as helicopters are more difficult to fly, and rarely can you get the certificate done in the minimum hours, and that is especially true for the add-on. Doing your PVT fixed may allow you to go to comm, but unless it's a 141 school, there is a lot of PIC to build, and again, there is no way to do that without the PVT in category and class, unless you are solo. That's a lot of solo.

 

You will be slightly more well rounded with a PVT fixed cert, but really, minimally so. Also, if by some rare chance you do get your certs with minimum hours... you now have less helicopter time than the pilots looking for the same job you are.

 

Lastly, if all you wanna do is ride motorcycles, you don't need an automobile license to do it, but you can't drive a car without it.

 

True - but riding a motorcycle, like flying a helicopter, adds an extra dimension beyond driving a car, and having already established knowledge of the road (rules, other driver tendencies, etc.) you can focus on learning and controlling the motorcycle instead of also having to learn so much of your surroundings at the same time.

 

...this is my intent. I want to be as comfortable as possible and, in any event, I like the prospect of being able to fly both.

[r22butters]

....while my ultimate goal is to own and operate my own single aircraft charter company, I understand that most companies and clients, especially the market I'd like to target, won't even ask my name if I have less than 1,000 hours. It looks like the popular M.O. is to get a CFI rating. Also seems like a great way to expand my own skills.

 

Like my Father always told me...."You don't really know it unless you can teach it."

 

I knew a CFII a few years ago who decided to start his own company. I don't know how many hours he had, but I know it was below 1000. His business ran pretty well for the few years he had it, however, having borrowed way more money than me for his ratings, and also having to support a family, I really have no idea how he was able to put it together?

 

Anyway,...

 

I don't have a fixed-wing rating. However, I've always felt I could (if I had to),...Zombies chasing me, or what not...)) easily climb into a small airplane and fly it with no problems (especially after learning running takeoffs/landings in the helicopter),...just have to remember not to slow down too much, or else drop out of the sky!

 

You know its funny, my farther always said, "Those who can,...do, those who can't,...teach!", but I guess there are a lot of cliche's out there?

Edited November 13, 2011 by r22butters

[Spike]

Welcome to the forum.

 

This site is not short on opinions and with that, I will offer mine.

 

If you want to fly helicopters for a living, why waste money getting a fixed wing license? Again, opinions may vary, but for some, obtaining fixed wing certification prior to helicopter training can be a dangerous transition. Furthermore, airplanes and helicopters are apples and oranges so try not to compare the two. Sure, some things are related but not much. If anything, get all of your helicopter certificates and ratings and add-on the fixed wing stuff later on. Plus, how are you going to get to the 1000 hours you speak of? The only real method is to become a CFI (as you stated) and get a job teaching in order to build time. Having said this, fixed wing time won’t mean squat to a helicopter flight school employer. Helicopter employers want helicopter time not fixed wing time. To an extent, insurance underwriters have the same philosophy as well, just in case you plan on going out on your own.

 

 

This business can be an exciting career choice but it can also be your worst nightmare. I suggest you do a lot more research before you fork over thousands of dollars and commit to any flight training program….

 

This is coming from a career helicopter pilot with a fixed wing rating…….

Edited November 14, 2011 by Spike

[JCM5]

Thanks Spike...it's not out of the question ....I am not fully committed to my fixed wing program yet, and nothing is stopping me from starting out in rotor-craft instead. I'm simply motivated by the advice of a handful of career pilots I know personally.

 

Time is somewhat on my side....I'm sure some pilots start their careers earlier, but being only 26 and having an even younger spirit I feel that I have plenty of time to accomplish my goals without cutting corners. I'll keep looking at my options in the coming weeks.

 

It's interesting however to already hear some very conflicting opinions about the benefits of having fixed wing certification prior to rotor-craft. I've had a lot of pilots tell me it's the smartest decision I could make, and others like yourself say it might be counter productive.

 

I've set aside roughly $60K of my savings to put towards training....hoping that it will be enough to obtain my commercial and CFI ratings....am I being too optimistic with my finances? Most of the cost research I've done tells me it will be plenty, and that is still under the assumption that I will fly more hours than the minimum FFA requirements in order to obtain those ratings.

[Rogue]

Couldn't disagree more with what was said.

 

I did Private Fixed wing first and I added on IN THE MINIMUMS.

 

The airplane took me way more than minimum, I took more naturally to the helicopter for some reason. You're mileage may vary. While seeking knowledge and opinions is generally a good idea only the person giving you hands on instruction can evaluate your potential. Anything said here may as well be pillow talk.

 

The biggest factor in my opinion was my instructor. He has a stack of 8710 forms about two inches thick - fixed wing and rotorcraft (that is the single piece of paper you fill out when you send someone up for a checkride back before the computerized IACRA). When you are learning fixed wing and your instructor can relate what you are doing now to how it will apply to the helicopter in the future it will make a difference. In fact the only thing that was really hard for me to do in the helo was a normal approach. You don't scream down at 70 knots and flare at the bottom ! ( unless you're doing a full down auto ! )

 

My instructor was also of the opinion that anyone that can't teach you in the minimums isn't a very good teacher. I took my fixed wing ride at 60 hours. I had 20 hours when I met the really good instructor that I'm talking about. So after he "retrained" me I guess you could say it took 40 hours for the fixed wing.

 

Also a huge factor in my opinion, don't make it out to be mroe than it is. In other words people are there own worst enemy. Just get out there and do it.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Rogue

[Trans Lift]

I have to say, I agree with Spike. I passed my helicopter private checkride with just over the minimums and I had never flown a thing before I started. It all depends on the individual.

 

If you have your heart set on helicopters, then go with helicopters. It will be easy to do a fixed wing add-on later on if you decide to go that way. Most helicopter jobs won't care about the fixed wing time (unless it is for dual rated position).

 

I tried the airplane flying when I worked at a school that had one and personally the plank flying bored me to death. If I couldn't fly a helicopter anymore, you wouldn't see me flying a fixed wing!!

[C of G]

Rogue,

 

I had a hard time following your post. Are you saying you did the Private helicopter add on in the minimums? Or did you do the private fixed and commercial rotorcraft in the minimums? Thanks.

[JCM5]

I've set aside roughly $60K of my savings to put towards training....hoping that it will be enough to obtain my commercial and CFI ratings....am I being too optimistic with my finances? Most of the cost research I've done tells me it will be plenty, and that is still under the assumption that I will fly more hours than the minimum FFA requirements in order to obtain those ratings.

 

 

....found a few more resources this evening, thinking I might want to put aside a bit more to cover total expenses for private, commercial, and CFI ratings. It's hard to base just off of flight school price structures....would love to hear about some personal experiences from others with CFI ratings. If you kept track, how much did it cost you to complete everything? Again keeping in mind I'm basing this off of what seems to be "average" hours, not FAA minimums.

[heligirl03]

If you were my student and planning on 0-CFII straight helicopter, I'd advise you to have at least $75k secured for basic training costs alone. Some get through in less and some much more but running out at the end is a common and totally avoidable hurdle. Your school and individual flight instructor(s) will have a lot to do with it so choose both wisely but be prepared to exercise respect, patience, and flexibility regardless.

 

Personally, I'd also advise you to skip the FW private as an absolutely unnecessary and misdirected use of resources at that stage. Fun (and cheap!) to add on later though and after helicopters it'll be a piece of cake!

 

Keep in mind the Law of Primacy which basically says that what you learn first is what sticks hardest. Even the most basic helicopter is a lot trickier than the most basic airplane...if you want to fly helicopters, learn to fly in a helicopter.

 

My 2 pennies

[JCM5]

If you were my student and planning on 0-CFII straight helicopter, I'd advise you to have at least $75k secured for basic training costs alone. Some get through in less and some much more but running out at the end is a common and totally avoidable hurdle. Your school and individual flight instructor(s) will have a lot to do with it so choose both wisely but be prepared to exercise respect, patience, and flexibility regardless.

 

Personally, I'd also advise you to skip the FW private as an absolutely unnecessary and misdirected use of resources at that stage. Fun (and cheap!) to add on later though and after helicopters it'll be a piece of cake!

 

Keep in mind the Law of Primacy which basically says that what you learn first is what sticks hardest. Even the most basic helicopter is a lot trickier than the most basic airplane...if you want to fly helicopters, learn to fly in a helicopter.

 

My 2 pennies

 

Thanks...that's the ballpark I was starting to re-consider towards and I think I can make it work. In any event this process is going to take me some years to complete so as time goes I'll be able to cover my cost. I've opened a completely separate bank account from my usual that is dedicated only to flight training and associated costs. Trying to plan ahead as much as humanly possible....

[Rotorhead84]

^{To comment on the fixed wing rating first before the helicopter thing. I myself first got my private in a fixed wing before pursuing my commercial helicopter rating. I did it for the sole reason of saving money.}

 

 

^{Its a lot cheaper, thats for sure. And you'll learn the basic stuff while having minimal work load.}

^{Flying a helicopter isn't as complicated as most will make it sound. Sure it is more involved than flying a plane, but if you can drive a manual transmission car, you have the motor skills to fly a plane. So if you pick up the fixed wing stuff pretty quick helos won't be a problem. Its the other crap that will take up most of your mental function. I found I payed more attention to the details of flying during my fixed wing stuff because the actual act of flying the plane wasn't very tasking. Then when it came to helo's, I could focus on the physical act of flying the helicopter instead of having to worry about airspace, and everything else that comes along with aviation, because I already had the information loaded in my skull and I had been exercising it for 40 hours.}

 

^{I figure I saved 6-7 grand by getting my private in a fixed wing. And I plan to get my instrument rating in a fixed wing, and then get a rotor add on. Saving money again. Planes are too cheap to ignore in my opinion.}

 

^{Private and commercial I spent about $30k. Logging 42 hours before my private checkride and 160 hours before my commercial. And I'm not some sort of genious or aviation "wiz kid". I did grow up around aviation my entire life so I'm sure that helped. To what degree is anyone's guess...}

 

^{My .02 on that bit.}

 

^{As far as starting a business goes, how much have you looked into it? I know it can be real hard to get started. As with any business. My father owns/operates an aerial application business, and I thought the way he got started was pretty smart.}

 

^{He went to the large local farms and got them to buy into his company, making them partners, and providing them with their own (cheaper) form of aerial application. This way he didn't have to cough up the expenses to get going either. Everybody wins. He got up and running and made sure he had the option to buy out later, which he did, and still everybody wins.}

 

^{Maybe try to lock down some big clients that will buy in initially? They'll turn into regular, long lasting customers after you buy out. And your association with them will fast track your reputation.}

[JCM5]

^{To comment on the fixed wing rating first before the helicopter thing. I myself first got my private in a fixed wing before pursuing my commercial helicopter rating. I did it for the sole reason of saving money.}

 

 

^{Its a lot cheaper, thats for sure. And you'll learn the basic stuff while having minimal work load.}

^{Flying a helicopter isn't as complicated as most will make it sound. Sure it is more involved than flying a plane, but if you can drive a manual transmission car, you have the motor skills to fly a plane. So if you pick up the fixed wing stuff pretty quick helos won't be a problem. Its the other crap that will take up most of your mental function. I found I payed more attention to the details of flying during my fixed wing stuff because the actual act of flying the plane wasn't very tasking. Then when it came to helo's, I could focus on the physical act of flying the helicopter instead of having to worry about airspace, and everything else that comes along with aviation, because I already had the information loaded in my skull and I had been exercising it for 40 hours.}

 

^{I figure I saved 6-7 grand by getting my private in a fixed wing. And I plan to get my instrument rating in a fixed wing, and then get a rotor add on. Saving money again. Planes are too cheap to ignore in my opinion.}

 

^{Private and commercial I spent about $30k. Logging 42 hours before my private checkride and 160 hours before my commercial. And I'm not some sort of genious or aviation "wiz kid". I did grow up around aviation my entire life so I'm sure that helped. To what degree is anyone's guess...}

 

^{My .02 on that bit.}

 

Thanks....just to clarify, were the 160 hours for your commercial rating in addition to the 42 hours you had accumulated for your private check ride or is that 0-160 hours total for commercial?

 

As far as my own business goes I am in very early stages of brainstorming. I'm not trying to get ahead of myself as I have a lot of flying to do before it's even an option - I have a few small business models in mind and plan to work on business plans as I learn more throughout my training, but we're talking about 5-6 years before I have enough flight time and am ready to start embarking on that sort of project.

[r22butters]

^{To comment on the fixed wing rating first before the helicopter thing. I myself first got my private in a fixed wing before pursuing my commercial helicopter rating. I did it for the sole reason of saving money.}

 

 

^{Its a lot cheaper, thats for sure. And you'll learn the basic stuff while having minimal work load.}

^{Flying a helicopter isn't as complicated as most will make it sound. Sure it is more involved than flying a plane, but if you can drive a manual transmission car, you have the motor skills to fly a plane. So if you pick up the fixed wing stuff pretty quick helos won't be a problem. Its the other crap that will take up most of your mental function. I found I payed more attention to the details of flying during my fixed wing stuff because the actual act of flying the plane wasn't very tasking. Then when it came to helo's, I could focus on the physical act of flying the helicopter instead of having to worry about airspace, and everything else that comes along with aviation, because I already had the information loaded in my skull and I had been exercising it for 40 hours.}

 

^{I figure I saved 6-7 grand by getting my private in a fixed wing. And I plan to get my instrument rating in a fixed wing, and then get a rotor add on. Saving money again. Planes are too cheap to ignore in my opinion.}

 

 

I'm stll a little confused as to how anyone can save money going fixed-wing first? If you need 200hrs in a helicopter for employment and you get your ratings in less than that, you still have to buy your way up to it,...unless your particular flight school will hire you with fewer hours,...to fly an S300, I suppose?

 

I wonder, do any fixed-wing schools suggest going "helicopter" first?

[rotormandan]

I don't believe it would be any cheaper to go fixed wing 1st. If all you do is fly helicopters then you're going to still learn all of those same "rules of the road" regardless during your private training that you would with fixed wing. If you do it all in just the minimums then your actually adding time to buy. 40 fixed wing with the 30hour heli add on is a bit more than just the 40 min for a straight private in helos. If you don't fly robinsons then I think you can do the add on in as little as 17 hours if you combine all the requirements just right.(I've never checked just heard) Even then you just paid for an extra 17 hours and you just cut yourself short of the total heli you're going to need for your 1st job. While yes a good instructor should be able to get a pilot done in the minimums it's not the norm. I'd say average for fixed with is 40-50 hours private and 45-60 in helicopters. Remember most of the instructors aren't going to be dual rated cfii's with that stack of 4710's on their desk. Most are 200-1000 hour pilots. With commercial mins at 150hrs you have plenty of time to make up for lost time if you go a little over on your private. Plus if you happen to train in Robbies, you need 200 hours heli to cfi. Like heli girl said, plan of 75,000. That gives room for error, gets more helicopter instead of the sim, lets you fly a few different ships instead of just 1, and if there's money left over and you weren't able to secure a job at your school than you can afford to make a road trip to knock on doors. Good luck. My biggest advise after this rant to save $ is stay ahead on the ground school and resist the urge to fly your ass off because it's fun without being caught up on the ground 1st. Nothing burns $ faster when your flying gets ahead of your knowledge regardless if your flying fixed or rotor.

[rotormandan]

BTW I went fixed 1st because I had access to my dad's cessna 172. It didn't help me much and would've cost a lot more if it wasn't my dad's plane.

 

 

I wonder, do any fixed-wing schools suggest going "helicopter" first?

 

Good point.

[JCM5]

Assuming I opt out of my private fixed wing certification, what is a likely time frame for obtaining a commercial or CFI heli rating? Lets say I can fly two to three times a week....

[Spike]

One of the advantages of teaching at a large flight school is you get to see the wide range of student pilot skill levels. While it’s difficult to place a number on the average number of flight hours a helicopter Private applicant achieves prior to taking his check-ride, I can say with a high level of certainty, the majority of students have graduated from their commercial training program at 150 hours.

 

The goal is Commercial Certification at 150 hours total time with 100 PIC. Based on a so-called “average” student, to an extent, it really doesn’t matter when you get the Private Certificate (airplane or helicopter) as it usually washes out at the end of the Commercial training.

 

I always recommend to folks to train to Private Certification then complete an Instrument Rating while building your PIC time towards the commercial. Once you receive the Instrument Rating, start the commercial stuff with the majority of the training from the left seat to prep for the CFI. Hopefully at the 100 hours of PIC time, and 150 hours total, you can pound out the Commercial check-ride with the CFI & CFII check-rides a few days later. Spread the time out between R22’s and S300’s. Fly the R44 as little as possible. After this you can add-on the stuck winged stuff at minimal cost.

 

With regards to the total cost, as HG03 said, plan for 75K. However, understand this is for the flight training alone. This will not include living expenses, additional training opportunities, food, travel (for job interviews), moving (if required), headsets, hats, t-shirts, HeliExpos, HeliSuccesses, beer, soda, whatever….

 

The most important message which needs to be conveyed is; it’s YOU who manages your flight training program and it’s YOU who decides how your goals will be accomplished. Flight schools are in the business of providing flight training and do so for anyone, and everyone. In most cases, their best interests are vastly different than yours. Therefore, you’ll need to be a pro from the get go and manage your training as you would manage your own business. . If you do this going in, you’ll be better off for it in the future and save a ton of dough.

 

Lastly, what you will get out of your training is exactly proportional to what you put into it and it starts at the moment you decide to take the plunge…. Which would be now…..

Edited November 14, 2011 by Spike

[JCM5]

Thanks again Spike.....

 

I've re-budgeted and taken into account outside expenses. I really appreciate your advice, and like most things in life, I expect to get out what I put in. I have some good contacts in the aviation industry that have already been a huge help, and this forum is quickly proving to be a great resource as well. I certainly expect to learn a lot along the way as too....

 

Also worth mentioning that a close friend of mine has a Hughes 500 in his garage - he is a CFI and has been flying choppers for over 30 years. I have the opportunity to fly with him as well, so I'll be able to spread my training across H300, R22, and H500. I've already been warned not to spend much of my initial hours in the H500....I agree it's a little over kill when learning to fly. In any event, it's good to know I'll have access to a more powerful bird once I complete my private rating.