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I just picked up the FAR/AIM and it seems as if 14 CFR 61.113b would be applicable. So I would be tempted to say no to your question, but I'm not a CFI and admittedly haven't looked at any regulations in close to a year. Also, to be sure and CYA I would think it would be prudent to consult with your local FSDO.

Edited by rjl2001
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If you carry no passengers or cargo for hire, then yes. You cannot receive compensation over and above what the FAR outlines, "sharing expenses". If you have any compensation from the owner of the aircraft or any of their business, separate from any duties of flying, I would say yes. An example would be a ferry flight not for hire, even with passengers. Remember, any accident, incident, or ramp check would end up revealing the true nature of your status. And don't forget, there are those who would "drop a dime" even if the FAA didn't catch up with you some other way.

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Hes not asking about getting paid for flying with a private certificate, hes asking about private vs common carriage.

 

google AC 120-12A, its an advisory circular about the specifics of private vs common carriage.

 

The answer to your question is yes, you do need a 135 certificate to conduct private carriage operations. Look under 119.5(h) a person holding an Operating Certificate authorizing noncommon or private carriage operations shall not conduct any operations in common carriage

 

there are operations that you can conduct without an operators certificate, listed under 119.1(e). A private charter operation is highly unlikely to fall under those requirements 119.1(e)(7)

 

So since we've established that a private carriage charter operation is not exempt under 119.1(e), lets flip forward to 119.25

 

"Each person who conducts rotorcraft operations for compensation or hire must comply with the certification and operations specifications requirements of Subpart C of this part, and shall conduct its:

(a) Commuter operations in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 135 of this chapter, and shall be issued operations specifications for those operations in accordance with those requirements.

( B)On-demand operations in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 135 of this chaper, and shall be issued operations specifications for those operations in accordance with those requirements.

 

So on-demand operations must comly with part 135, unless they are specifically exempt under 119.1

 

*edit

Paco ninja'd me to the AC reference ;)

 

Can anyone tell me why my "b" above keeps turning into a smiley?

Edited by rotorwashed
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As a commercial certificate holder, flying private carriage for hire, is it necessary to hold an operators certificate if flying is incidental to the business?

 

This reminds me of an R44 job I've seen a couple of times. It involved flying the companies executives to their various branches located over about six different states.

 

Is this like to what you are refering, because there was no mention of an operators certificate being a requirement?

:huh:

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This reminds me of an R44 job I've seen a couple of times. It involved flying the companies executives to their various branches located over about six different states.

 

Is this like to what you are refering, because there was no mention of an operators certificate being a requirement?

:huh:

 

its not the pilot that needs the operators certificate, its the owner of the aircraft/business

 

a pilot only needs to meet the requirements of part 135 for whatever type operation the business wants to conduct in order to be hired. 135.243( B) <--- supposed to be a "b"

 

using your example of flying company execs around, assuming that the pilot isnt actually carrying anyone between states to get to these branches, I believe their pilots would only need 500 hours TT; 100 cross country; 25 night.

 

If the pilot didnt hold an instrument rating, then they would not be able to operate VFR-on-top.

 

If the operator was trying to carry these execs across a state line, the pilot would have to have an airline transport license.

 

please correct me if im wrong

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No operating certificate is required for in house corporate flight, they use part 91.

 

But thats only if the company owns their own helicopters and employs their own pilots right?

 

Say if a company wanted their execs shuttled around, and they contracted someone with a fleet of aircraft and pilots to match. Whoever was awarded the contract would have to have an operators certificate correct?

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Say if a company wanted their execs shuttled around, and they contracted someone with a fleet of aircraft and pilots to match. Whoever was awarded the contract would have to have an operators certificate correct?

 

Yes, since flying is not "incidental to their business", but in fact IS their business.

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I should have added a link to this AVweb article that I was referencing: http://www.avweb.com...w/186346-1.html

 

I think some of us understood the question a little differently. My assumption was a comercially rated pilot who was an employee of a business that owned/operated an aircraft, and was using that aircraft to fly for hire on noncommon carriage flights, that were solely incidental to whatever their main business is. My presumption in that scenario is still that it can be done with a private rating and under Part 91.

 

I will admit though that the cite I gave to 14 CFR 61.113b, is worded in a way that isn't entirely clear to me.

"§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs ( B) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.

( B) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire."

 

Haha, I also noticed anytime I try to properly cite paragraph b that it shows up as a happy face.

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As a commercial certificate holder, flying private carriage for hire, is it necessary to hold an operators certificate if flying is incidental to the business?

 

 

Your hypothetical question has some conflicting statements and is ambiguous. It could be better answered if you clarified your question in terms of a real scenario.

 

The term “private carriage” is sometimes misused; however, it has a distinct meaning;

Private carriage is a common law term, not specifically defined in the Federal Aviation Regulations. It has been interpreted to mean an aircraft operation for compensation or hire that does not involve holding out, or that involves very limited holding out. It is often characterized by carriage for one or several selected customers, generally on a long-term basis. Private carriage operations require the issuance of an operating certificate. Operations would be conducted under part 125 or part 135, depending on the type of aircraft, seating configuration, and payload capacity.

 

So you can see why your question is unclear. If you are in fact engaged in “private carriage” your flying is not incidental to the business and in fact, is an enterprise for profit that requires an operating certificate.

 

People misusing the term “private carriage” most often mean a noncommercial operation, not involving common carriage, that is conducted under Part 91 that involve the carriage of officials, employees, guests, and property of a private company on an aircraft operated by that company when the carriage is within the scope of, and incidental to, the business of the company (other than transportation by air) and no charge, assessment or fee is made for the carriage.

 

FAR 110.2 defines “operations not involving common carriage” to mean:

 

1. noncommon carriage; (i.e., an aircraft operation for compensation or hire that does not involve a holding out to others)

 

2. operations in which persons or cargo are transported without compensation or hire;

 

3. operations not involving the transportation of persons or cargo and;

 

4. private carriage (i.e., an aircraft operation for compensation or hire that does not involve holding out, or that involves very limited holding out)

 

Under this definition, two types of operations are commercial because they involve compensation or hire (i.e., noncommon carriage and private carriage); and two types are noncommercial (i.e., operations in which persons or cargo are transported without compensation or hire and operations not involving the transportation of persons or cargo).

 

 

REF:

8900.1 - Air Carrier Commercial Operator Certificate Determinations

 

Letter to Michael Goldman from Rebecca B. MacPherson, Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations, (Jun. 14, 2006)

Edited by iChris
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