I'm discouraged (student) -- considering quitting :(

[Pohi]

 

 

This is exactly what I've been trying to do intentionally over my last couple of lessons. Those damn set downs have probably been the hardest thing for me. Usually what happens is I will start with a nice stabilized 5 ft hover and then the instant I think about setting down everything goes to s***. I start having anxiety about going sideways or backwards, which, of course, CAUSES me to go sideways and backwards, then I try to set down anyway and panic at the last inch above the ground because I'm going sideways/backwards and pull back into a wobbly hover, then I'm gripped and wobbling all over the place after that. I often have to fly a mini rectangle pattern over the practice pad just to shake it off, take a deep breath, and get stabilized again. I think if I do what you suggest and just try to make sliding it on forwards the default for now, it will reduce the nerves a bit and will help me learn proper set downs more easily in the long run.

 

Haha, omg. That is exactly what I used to do! My instructor used to joke with me that I was afraid of the ground. It used to take me 5 min to get it landed sometimes, I think I was way too concerned with having a perfect letdown that any movement at all used to shake me up. What really helped me was doing hover autos. I saw then just how much bouncing around the helicopter could handle and wasn't so much concerned about breaking the helicopter or rolling it over with a slight bit of movement after that.

 

With my students I do the "hover lower" thing. Slowly hovering lower until it is finally on the ground. Sometimes, I will have the student control the cyclic and petals while I lower the collective. What this does is guarantee a setdown and the student learns to just minimize the movement to as little as possible because we are gonna land no matter what.

 

I'm glad you are going to keep trying, and try to keep in mind that your difficulties are very common. And as far as your instructor complaining that students almost killed him several times.... That's the students job. The instructors job is to not let them. If the students almost succeed on a regular basis, then the instructor isn't doing their job very well.

 

The only "close" calls(where I pooped myself) I had where when I was new and couldn't anticipate what was about to happen. After I had more experience, I could recognize and anticipate what the student might do before they made the mistakes, and therefore be prepared. Granted, sometimes people get really creative and things get exciting, but that is rare. I think there is a Robbie safety notice about this topic that is a good read.

[500E]

MOT

You have the problem most, if not all of us have had learning, it takes time & money.

Resting arm is good, look out & find something 1\200 ft away to lock on to, don't look down, the ground is still there. just try & hold the 5 ft hover & just stop griping the collective so tight you will descend.

Looking down over grass will throw you, grass makes you look as if drifting.

It is not good the instructor talks about other paying customers to you, this is not a professional approach.

[Helipilot PTK]

I second that hover autos can help greatly. My instructor would always tell me, when I was about to land, to not pull the collective up at all once I started to descend. Try this next time, slowly start going down on the collective while looking well in front of the helicopter, talk to your instructor about anything while you are landing, this may help you not over think what you are doing. I can say almost every time I started to get shaky on landings it was because I was looking 5-10 feet in front of the helicopter. A very good way I learned to hover/set-downs, and I am sure many instructors do this, Was to go to the compass rose and practice hovering, hover turns, set-downs and pick-ups all while staying in the compass rose circle. Like most good things in life it takes practice, time, and money. You already know how to fly airplanes, so you already know how to navigate, make weather decisions, airspace, flight plans, and radio communication (being able to be cleared straight to the ramp might get a little confusing at first ) so all of your focus can be on learning to control the aircraft. You will pick it up in no time if you keep at it. I agree with the post above about trying a different instructor if possible, and taking a break from it and going on vacation, then starting up again will help. Hope this helps and keep at it!

[Goldy]

You dont climb most mountains going straight up, sometimes you plateau and sometimes you hike down before you go back up. Basically, learning is the same thing, its not an hour by hour improvement, but rather some big gains one day and maybe nothing the next.

 

My only other advice is don't "spend money you don't have". If you want to learn to fly, then save up 10K and go do it. If you're wincing writing the checks you may be flying less than optimum times, which just costs more and adds to your frustration.

 

Just know that your progress is not unusual. Same things we have all struggled with and been thru.

 

Good luck,

[cryesis]

"You dont climb most mountains going straight up, sometimes you plateau and sometimes you hike down before you go back up. Basically, learning is the same thing, its not an hour by hour improvement, but rather some big gains one day and maybe nothing the next."

 

That is one of the best things I've ever heard.

[warmkiter]

HI

 

Let me just give you some hints and help.

 

"my instructor is a sharp guy and he conveys the lesson material clearly, but he definitely creates a bit of a critical atmosphere that makes me feel like he is constantly judging my mess-ups, which I think is contributing significantly to the tension and my feelings of pressure to succeed. A more laid back atmosphere would definitely help I think."

 

To be a sharp instructor and pass the knowledge to the student is only a small part of being a good instructor. If you feel that he is increasing the tension during lessons, then it is exactly what he does. Sometimes this in unintended and unnoticed by the instructor. Sometimes not. A good instructor should know when to increase the stresslevel ( this can be very important in later training, when it comes to command skills and decision making during timecritical emergency procedures ) and when to calm down the student to make him perform as good as he can.

 

Usually the students know them self when they dont perform well. There is no need to tell them that they just crooked it up completely, not verbally, not nonverbally. Just rolling the eyes after a bumpy setdown is enough to break down good learning atmosphere. If you dont feel good during lessons, change the instructor!

 

"Furthermore, he sometimes relates annecdotes to me about his other students in an overly critical fashion, telling me how badly such and such student of his did such and such maneuver yesterday and almost killed him... and similarly, he often comments on the incompetence of other pilots (most frequently when it comes to imperfect radio calls), so I assume he probably uses my mess-ups as punchlines of anecdotes that he tells others."

 

This kind of behaviour during lessons is an absolute NO-GO! Intruction is a confidential situation and what happens in vegas stays in vegas! Sometimes its necessary to quote an incident or accident, but this has to be in a respectable manner, not commenting the incompetence of other pilots! Ofcourse you can learn from mistakes already done by other pilots, but these are not the punchlines in anecdotes or jokes! How many hours has your instructor? I am sure that in this forum are a lot guys who have hundred times more hours and experience and dont even think to be disrespectful to a fellow pilot who f`*cked it up.

 

As previously quoted

 

1. Relax

2. Dont set too high expectations.

3. Change the instructor

4. Before you step into the cockpit with your next instructor, have a chat with him. Check if he is a person you can trust and communicate with

5. Enjoy flying

 

Blue skies

 

L

 

CFI, CPL H, ATPL A, CPT MD11

[ADRidge]

Excellent post. One last thought I had today about this topic... It deals with confrontation. If you're like me, you try and go with the flow as much as possible. I tried for the longest time during training to just be an amicable guy, because my instructor obviously knew more than I did, and the owner wouldn't have hired him if he wasn't a good CFI. Well, that is generally the case, but sometimes you have to tell your instructor or the owner if you're not happy.

 

Ultimately it's your money, and this helicopter stuff isn't exactly cheap. Make sure you're getting your money's worth!

[mrkik]

Sounds like nearly everything has been covered in this topic. I have around 80 hours now. The times when my hovering gets bad is when I have a death grip on the controls. What I do is just take a deep breath and relax my shoulders and my death grip. Sometimes I only use three fingers (one on the mic button, my thumb and middle finger wrapped around it). The sooner you can relax the better you'll get.

 

Ask you instructor to remind you to relax if he doesn't already. Thats what helped me the most. Oh and when setting down, if you can establish a slow decent, don't adjust the collective anymore, just let yourself slowly settle to the ground.

 

Relax, deep breath, no death grip, eyes focused on something far away. You'll get it. You can hover. You can do it.

[Goldy]

"You dont climb most mountains going straight up, sometimes you plateau and sometimes you hike down before you go back up. Basically, learning is the same thing, its not an hour by hour improvement, but rather some big gains one day and maybe nothing the next."

 

That is one of the best things I've ever heard.

 

Thanks, I made it up just for the post. (Probably didnt hurt that I climbed a 6000 foot peak last Sunday!) It's true though, we each expect that we will be better at the end of every lesson. Usually we are, but you can't beat yourself up if you were "off". Like I said, we have all been there at some point.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Goldy

[Spike]

All new student pilots are dangerous and could kill the instructor. Helicopters are dangerous.

 

These are true statements.... A student pilot once shot and killed an instructor during a rather harsh post flight critique, and the other day, I walked by our machine and darn thing tripped me with its skids.... I could’ve been killed!!

 

Seriously, student pilots are dangerous only if the instructor gets behind the 8-ball. Or the saying goes, students don’t kill instructors, instructors kill instructors... Likewise, helicopters are dangerous only when operated by dangerous people.... Otherwise, it’s just an inert pile of parts sitting on the ramp.

[aeroscout]

I disagree that helicopters are only dangerous when operated by dangerous people. Ground mishaps, maintenance, defective parts, CAT or other weather totally unforeseeable. I would agree that helicopters are for the vast majority part dangerous due to pilot error. Statistics will bear that assertion out. Oddly enough I had a dream last night about this very subject.

[nightsta1ker]

Helicopters are far safer than most people give them credit for. And I have yet to see a crash video that was not due to pilot error. Look at the NTSB reports? What percentage of accidents are due to an unforeseeable mechanical failure? Almost zero. Either the pilot screws up, or the mechanic screws up. As for weather, it's te pilots job to evaluate changing weather and make decisions. In my opinion, the weather is not an excuse for a CFIT scenario. It almost never changes rapidly enough for the pilot to not have time to find a place to land, and if the weather started out borderline and the pilot pushed it, that's their fault too. Sorry, fact is that almost all crashes are due to a breakdown in ADM or cheap/shoddy maintenance.

[Spike]

I disagree that helicopters are only dangerous when operated by dangerous people. Ground mishaps, maintenance, defective parts, CAT or other weather totally unforeseeable. I would agree that helicopters are for the vast majority part dangerous due to pilot error. Statistics will bear that assertion out. Oddly enough I had a dream last night about this very subject.

 

It’s been said, the helicopter industry has an identity problem caused by an inaccurate public perception. And, unless perception is changed, this industry will always be viewed as the “bastard stepchild” of aviation and thus never flourish.

 

Changing public perception starts with people like us. That is, those who are intimately involved in the business of operating helicopters. Helicopters are not dangerous. They are only as dangerous as the people operating them. A night clerk operating a cash register at a mini-market anywhere in America is a far more dangerous occupation. However, that same night clerk can probably get a life insurance policy pretty easily. Not so for a helicopter pilot. Sure, if you look hard enough you can find coverage but guess what, you’ll pay a higher premium than that clerk. All because the majority of the population believes flying helicopters is a dangerous proposition…..

 

Realize, as insiders, what you say today can affect your future….

Edited April 19, 2012 by Spike

[Pohi]

Well said spike.

[Wally]

This is exactly what I've been trying to do intentionally over my last couple of lessons. Those damn set downs have probably been the hardest thing for me. Usually what happens is I will start with a nice stabilized 5 ft hover and then the instant I think about setting down everything goes to s***. I start having anxiety about going sideways or backwards, which, of course, CAUSES me to go sideways and backwards, then I try to set down anyway and panic at the last inch above the ground because I'm going sideways/backwards and pull back into a wobbly hover, then I'm gripped and wobbling all over the place after that. I often have to fly a mini rectangle pattern over the practice pad just to shake it off, take a deep breath, and get stabilized again. I think if I do what you suggest and just try to make sliding it on forwards the default for now, it will reduce the nerves a bit and will help me learn proper set downs more easily in the long run.

 

I'm going to give you the secret to perfect set-downs, but you have to cross your heart, hope to die and... something else.

Never (ever!) Feel for the ground, or try to make the last six inches smooth as silk. Concentrate on holding the aircraft as still as you can, descend as slowly as you can, and fly the pig until the collective bottoms out. The secret is being stationary and not worrying about the touch down itself. They won't be perfect every time, but your set-downs will be better than ever, occasionally, great; and a couple out of a thousand might be nearly perfect.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Wally

[scwdds1]

Hey MOT,

 

I am a little more than a day behind on this post but I am a student as well and I only have a meager 7 hours in the r22. I had always dreamt of flying a helicopter but decided on dental school about 20 years ago instead until now. Along with everybody else on the instructor depends on your area. Where I am located, I literally have one school with two instructors and one r22 within 110 mile radius. So if you don't have that luxury of having multiple schools or multiple instructors then it would be much harder to just "try" another CFI. I really invested a lot of time (and $) on building a fairly realistic r22 simulator using FlightLink controls (T-bar, collective w/ throttle, and pedals). I literally "flew" my home sim with two monitors (a large 40" for out of the cockpit viewing with trackIR) and a 17" monitor positioned just like the instrument panel on the r22 for over 60 hours. When I went to start my lessons, I literally was hovering with really reasonable control in about 50 minutes or less. That is not to brag but to simply state how it takes time whether its seat time or simulator time. I have GoPro'd every minute of my five lessons to verify this. You can follow my sim and my lessons on youtube under my same user id scwdds1. One thing that you haven't mentioned or that I didn't read was, have you been trying to pick up and set down on pavement this whole time or in a practice field somewhere? What have the winds been like?

As I stated above, when you watch some of my lesson clips, they are all in a practice field and it is much better learning environment (and ground effect is way better) rather than when we taxi back to our hangar and setting down 50 yards from the hangar door and nothing but pavement around me its a WHOLE different ball game and I literally want to throw my hands up and say "YOU TAKE IT!" but I haven't yet and I still have a hard time (and wobbly) time setting it down there. So those two things are what have truly helped me for hovering which is the essential "key" building block to learning the craft. Hope this helps in some small way and try to check out a lot of different youtube helicopter lesson videos too. That may put your mind in a little more comfortable spot!! Good luck

scwdds1

[SBuzzkill]

F it. Hovering auto.

[aeroscout]

F it. Hovering auto.

It does quickly solve the down part.

[Hotdogs]

F it. Hovering auto.

 

The term we use is a cut-gun...is that what you guys use?

[SBuzzkill]

Yep. Never heard of cut-gun.

[aeroscout]

Yep. Never heard of cut-gun.

Ditto, I've always heard it as hovering auto.

Can you give a reference to "cut gun" ?

Edited April 21, 2012 by aeroscout

[Spike]

Those damn set downs have probably been the hardest thing for me. Usually what happens is I will start with a nice stabilized 5 ft hover and then the instant I think about setting down everything goes to s***.

 

In my opinion,

 

Lots of this has already been covered but I’ll add my 2c anyway…

 

Set-downs:

 

It’s already been said but relaxing is key. Just like a Major Leaguer stepping up to the plate, prior to setting-down, take a big breathe and get the oxygen flowing (actually this holds true for any maneuver)….

 

Whatever you’re doing prior to setting down (like on approach), slightly wiggle all of your extremities. Fingers, feet, arms, shoulders etc, etc. This will release any tension which may have accumulated during the previous moments.

 

Once in position (3 foot hover), start the helicopter on that slow descent and don’t stop. Commit. Keep your eyes out on the horizon, and let the ground come to the helicopter. Once you feel skid contact, simply lower the collective a little more to get the weight of the machine on the skids. The will prevent any scooching across the ground. At this point, lower to collective all the way down and proceed with whatever. Remember; never stop flying the machine throughout the maneuver…

 

Let me guess, set-downs at the training area are cake, but once you head back to parking, all heck breaks loose….. Psych…. Get it in your head there’s no difference where you actually set the machine down (other than a slope, obviously). Therefore, go to various places and seterdown. Parking ramps with lots of people around. Pinnacles, confined areas, a dolly, a beach, tall grass, rocks, boulders, aircraft carrier, etc, etc. Use the same technique as mentioned above for every set-down…..

 

I know this is an unpopular statement but, don’t worry too much about dinging the machine. The helicopter is not yours and that is why you are paying the big-bucks to learn. Plus, the instructor is there as an insurance policy (which you pay for) to prevent you from dinging the machine….

 

Last but not least, have fun with it. Don’t know about you but, if I’m gonna spend a few hundred bucks for an-hour for anything, I better darn sure have fun!

Edited April 21, 2012 by Spike

[cryesis]

I've also been told its normal for the left skid to touch down first in the r22, once I got over trying to have both skids touch and let the left touch a millisecond before the right my touchdowns are pretty good

[Hotdogs]

Ditto, I've always heard it as hovering auto.

Can you give a reference to "cut gun" ?

 

Essentially being in a hover and rolling the twist grip/throttle off. I'm assuming thats what you guys mean by hovering auto.

[SBuzzkill]

Yep. When you cut the throttle you announce "hovering auto."

 

You would confuse the hell out of someone if you announced "cut-gun" in one of our birds. LoL!

Edited April 22, 2012 by SBuzzkill