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Faults found on preflight


nightsta1ker

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In my opinion,

 

A scratch in the paint, paint chip, scuff or normal wear is one thing. A dent, crack, ding, deformation or level of wear or corrosion is another. The latter will have limits. In most cases, the former will not.

 

As a CFI, you have a reason to fly (to make money for the company by providing a service to the customer). A student has no reason to fly, other than to learn. The student is the customer and paying umpteen hundreds of dollars for said service. If the customer has a doubt about the quality of the machine, he/she should voice that concern, whatever the issue may be. Without voicing a concern, nothing will ever happen….. Teach your students to speak up if they have a concern. In this business, ignorance is not bliss, its death. Over time and through experience, your students will adopt their own comfort level with the quality of the machine they fly. It’s you that will set the foundation….

 

At our little slice of heaven, our DOM has a method of dealing with such matters. If one person squawks a concern, he keeps an eye on it. If 2 of us squawk an issue, he researches and takes appropriate action. If 3 of us squawk a problem, no matter the condition (that is, even if the part/vibration/whatever in question is within acceptable limits), the component/condition is removed, replaced with new, rectified, or repaired as required…. Simply put, he refuses to accept the liability of more than 2 people voicing a concern over what a manufacturer stipulates in a manual…… Great practice albeit, not cheap…..

I bet that guy would replace a nicked fan belt.

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During run up one day, the cylinder head temp gauge died out of no where right before the mag drop check.

 

We ended up switching aircraft. Never did find out if it was a short, the gauge, or the sensor that failed.

 

I've never seen the maintenance manual, and truth be told, I have no idea what EXACTLY is required other than that of the POH and 91.205. The FAR states Temp gauges for WATER COOLED engines are required, but nothing about air cooled. I would never DRIVE without an operating temp gauge, let alone fly, but is that gauge required by anything?

 

I'm rambling. Is there a resource online that I can utilize in regard to a 22? I'll do my google'ing in the morning for sure, but I'm sure other people might be wondering as well.

 

 

 

Yes it is required and it says so in the POH. If you are doing a lot of flying in the R22 and don't have a POH I highly suggest you get one. It's a small price to pay for a book that you will be living out of for along time.

Edited by nightsta1ker
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During run up one day, the cylinder head temp gauge died out of no where right before the mag drop check.

 

We ended up switching aircraft. Never did find out if it was a short, the gauge, or the sensor that failed.

 

I've never seen the maintenance manual, and truth be told, I have no idea what EXACTLY is required other than that of the POH and 91.205. The FAR states Temp gauges for WATER COOLED engines are required, but nothing about air cooled. I would never DRIVE without an operating temp gauge, let alone fly, but is that gauge required by anything?

 

I'm rambling. Is there a resource online that I can utilize in regard to a 22? I'll do my google'ing in the morning for sure, but I'm sure other people might be wondering as well.

 

If I remember correctly, Frank puts a lot of items in the limitation section of the POH and therefore making them required working items. Read, unable to placard “inop” and render the machine unairworthy if it's not working.

 

If you look in the limitation section, you should find “Powerplant Limitations”. Somewhere listed below should be a limitation on Cylinder Head Temperature (500F/260C?). Bingo, required……

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Where I work, it only takes one person to have an issue and it is fixed. I am on a contract, though, and only myself and my opposite fly our particicular aircraft. I have never experienced MX as good as where I work now. They are really thorough: rags and tools are inventoried, real CCI's (not some pencil whip job). Many of the mechanics have 20+ years experience, all at the same place. Not guys that have 20 years experience with 15 different jobs. I have seen the worst of it, too. Damn glad that's over!

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It's always nice working for someone who pays top dollar for quality work to be done (my day job as a contractor for the 160th). We get what we need to do the job right. On the GA side of things, the profit margin is so thin that it takes about all we have to keep things legal and safe with any margin. Maintenance is not done to the same standards. When I first started turning wrenches outside the military, I was appalled at the sloppiness I saw in other mechanics work. But it's legal, and technically, it's still considered safe. I like doing things by the book. If I am going to fix something, it's going to be by the book. I don't reuse packings, and I don't substitute hazmat. I make sure my cotter pins are tight. The devil's in the details. But I cannot account for the lessor, and some of the things he has done to our aircraft, as he does most of the maintenance and is the one who gets to choose what gets replaced and when. There is a lot we would love to just replace, but it's not up to us. It's not our aircraft. At some point, we hope to buy our own ship. Until then, we have to work with what we have. I know quite few other schools that are in similar situations.

 

It's easy to say you would replace the belt if you found even the tiniest nick or fray but when replacing one belt requires you replace the whole set (8 in this case, must be replaced as a matched set, and NOT easy to get, by the way) and you have to pull the tail rotor drive shaft and gear box out to do it, you might reconsider if it's really that bad. Ok, so it's showing a little bit of wear. Yes, it needs to be addressed soon. Belts are on order and I have to wait for Sikorsky to send them to me. In the meantime, I have 5 hours before the aircraft is down for the 50 hour inspection. I've got 8 belts... one of them is showing some wear (nothing I have not seen on just about every schweizer I have ever flown, mind you) and you think it should be replaced without question. Ok... whatever.

 

Now, if it were a drive belt on a Robinson, and I saw a nick, I would probably agree with Spike and aeroscout a bit more on the topic. Those belts are a different style, and there are far fewer of them. I hold different aircraft to different standards. If I saw some stuff on a Robbie that I do on Schweizers, I would ground it. But they are completely different aircraft. The Schweizers are a lot older of a design. They spew grease everywhere, and they are significantly more complicated than the R22. Maintenance inspections are significantly more in depth and costly as well, which is why they cost more to operate. You can't hold them to the same standards. They are too different.

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It's not the nick in the fan belt, it's the link in the chain of preventing accidents/incidents. If I see a "nick in a fan belt", and according to my experience and judgement, I foresee that snowballing into something I could have prevented, the fan belt has to be taken out of the chain of events that would lead to catastrophe.

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It's not the nick in the fan belt, it's the link in the chain of preventing accidents/incidents. If I see a "nick in a fan belt", and according to my experience and judgement, I foresee that snowballing into something I could have prevented, the fan belt has to be taken out of the chain of events that would lead to catastrophe.

 

Good logic. I like it. But I am really getting irritated with the way this thread is going. For one, you combined two different points in my original post into "nicked fan belt". Why do you keep quoting me as having said "nick in a fan belt"? I said nick on a tail rotor blade and a crack in a fan belt. You know the tiny little cracks you start to see when the belts are old? It's called dry rotting, and though it will eventually mean the end of the belt, it starts slow and signs of it can be seen very early in a belts service life if you look hard enough. It doesn't necessarily mean that failure is imminent, it just means the belts are coming due for replacement.

 

 

I'm seriously considering not posting on here anymore. Some of you guys are out for blood. I was trying to highlight a potential issue about a negative transfer of learning and now it looks like I am flying a death-trap and putting my students at risk.

 

I put 6 more hours on my death-trap this weekend, and guess what? I'm still here. And those tiny cracks in the drive belts are no worse than they were before (though I am still going to replace them this weekend).

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Now that you guys have "duked it out", the old fart climbs into the ring (with assistance), the microphone is lowered and the results are announced! On the judges scorecards it reads, "Use your preflight & post flight inspection skills to note areas of concern. Put maintenance decisions on Maintenance personnel when possible".

 

I have been able to work with outstanding maintenance team members. I have always sought guidance for areas of concern. I could always decide "not to fly it" if I was truly uncomfortable with something. I trusted maintenance to "ground an aircraft" if it was determined to be non flyable. They would then work to return to service an AOG aircraft.

 

To keep the picture clear, I offer a little history. I have been to Functional Check Pilot courses, field maintenance courses and overhauled aircraft. I put maintenance decisions on the appropriate team members and trusted those decisions to keep me safe. It works the way it is supposed to!

 

Keep up good pre and post flight inspections. Use teamwork and good judgment and be safe.

 

Mike

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Yes it is required and it says so in the POH. If you are doing a lot of flying in the R22 and don't have a POH I highly suggest you get one. It's a small price to pay for a book that you will be living out of for along time.

 

I do have the POH. I wouldn't have gotten this far in my flight training if I didn't. Read below for my response to this.

 

On a side note, I totally understand where you are coming from with your gigantor post about the two birds being so different, as well as what types of things are deemed "do it now" maintenance. For a while (probably 3 weeks), there wasn't a single time I did a preflight and didnt find something wrong. All of it was small stuff. The only thing that warranted true concern was when I found that two oil lines had loosened up. Maintenance came out and fixed everything on the spot though, even the small stuff. Anyways, I think that some people need more mechanic experience overall, even if it's on a general level. Debates like the one about the belt would probably be nonexistant.

 

If I remember correctly, Frank puts a lot of items in the limitation section of the POH and therefore making them required working items. Read, unable to placard “inop” and render the machine unairworthy if it's not working.

 

If you look in the limitation section, you should find “Powerplant Limitations”. Somewhere listed below should be a limitation on Cylinder Head Temperature (500F/260C?). Bingo, required……

 

Ok, so I'm looking at the POH as I type this. "Cylinder Head Max Temp 500 F" is on there, as well as on another page in the same section telling you where the green arc and red line is at (200-500F and 500F respectively). No where does it say that the gauge must be operating for flight. Based on what you're telling me, am I to assume that just because a gauge is MENTIONED in that section, that it MUST be operating for flight? I ask this because I simply don't know. Also, I pose this question the way it is because there is another page that lists only four gauges that MUST be operational for "dispatch" (my understanding is that it used to say flight). Gov, OAT, Alternator, and Low RPM warning system.

 

I know the FAA has their own set of gauges that must be operational, the only one pertaining to the 22 (in the case of TEMP gauges) is "Oil Temperature gauge for each air cooled engine" leading me to believe that the Cyl Head Temp gauge does NOT need to be operational.

 

I also just read 91.213 that talks about all this. My flight school doesn't have an MEL, so then the 4 checks, 3 actions come into play. The only one that could make me abandon flight is "Is it a hazard to the aircraft." This is somewhat debatable in itself. Some would argue yes it is a hazard, while others would say that "I can monitor temperature via the Oil Temp Gauge" and be just fine.

 

Granted those last two are under the assumption that the answer to my first question is no.

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Ok, so I'm looking at the POH as I type this. "Cylinder Head Max Temp 500 F" is on there, as well as on another page in the same section telling you where the green arc and red line is at (200-500F and 500F respectively). No where does it say that the gauge must be operating for flight. Based on what you're telling me, am I to assume that just because a gauge is MENTIONED in that section, that it MUST be operating for flight? I ask this because I simply don't know. Also, I pose this question the way it is because there is another page that lists only four gauges that MUST be operational for "dispatch" (my understanding is that it used to say flight). Gov, OAT, Alternator, and Low RPM warning system.

 

I know the FAA has their own set of gauges that must be operational, the only one pertaining to the 22 (in the case of TEMP gauges) is "Oil Temperature gauge for each air cooled engine" leading me to believe that the Cyl Head Temp gauge does NOT need to be operational.

 

In my opinion,

 

Cylinder Head Max Temp listed in Limitation Section.

 

Limitation Section is FAA Approved based on certification.

 

Red line at 500F is a limitation.

 

Can this limitation be complied with if the gauge is not functioning?

 

No....

 

Gauge must be operable for flight…..

Edited by Spike
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In my opinion, based on faa interpretations thru the years... the CHT on the R22 or 269 would not have to be operational to fly... although it must be placarded INOP.

 

I believe you're right on course ridethisbike. This discussion will never have a concensus. People will always disagree... that's ok nightstalker... don't run away... learn from others comments... be careful and pointed with your questions and remarks.

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91.9 (a)

"...no person may operate a civil aicraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards..."

 

If it states in the Limitations section that the "Cylinder Head Max Temperature" is 500 F (as it does in the 22's "Approved Rotorcraft Flight Manual") then how can you comply with 91.9 (a) without the guage?

 

If you have a placard for "Never Exceed Speed", how can you comply with 91.9 (a) without an operable OAT guage?

 

The last time I was at the Robinson course I asked them why some of these, obviously important, items were not in the Limitations sections. I don't remember the exact answer, but it had something to do with FAA "red tape".

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Sure, the regulations are up for interpretation. With that, try this….

 

Any component, instrument, piece of equipment which can be placarded "inop" is essentially not required for flight. Therefore, if that CHT goes teets-up on you, go ahead and placard it “inop”. After that, go to your local FSDO and offer a ride to the local FAA helicopter inspector… I dare you…..

 

Shoot, if you really want to be the hero, let the boss know, since (in your opinion) the CHT is not required, save some cashola and simply remove it……. Yeh, do that and let us know how that works out………

 

Opinions will vary but it’s the Fed’s opinion that counts……

Edited by Spike
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Ok... interesting that the DPE 3 weeks ago just told my commercial student the same thing I said... cause it's right there in the FAR's. That's why I said we'd never have consensus on this subject unless we have a legal interpretation from the faa.

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In my opinion, based on faa interpretations thru the years... the CHT on the R22 or 269 would not have to be operational to fly... although it must be placarded INOP.

 

If so, please provide the reference to the FAA’s interpretation.

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Ok... interesting that the DPE 3 weeks ago just told my commercial student the same thing I said... cause it's right there in the FAR's. That's why I said we'd never have consensus on this subject unless we have a legal interpretation from the faa.

 

DPE opinions will vary as well…..

 

Please provide the FAR whcih allows a red line gauge marking (limitation) to be ignored…

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Just playing devils advocate here (I see valid points to both sides of this argument):

 

Why put the burden of proof on apiaguy?

 

Where does it say you HAVE to have the gauge? If you don't have to have the gauge, why should you have to obey the red line limit? It says you should not exceed it, but that's assuming you have a functional gauge.

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"Where does it say you HAVE to have the gauge? If you don't have to have the gauge, why should you have to obey the red line limit? It says you should not exceed it, but that's assuming you have a functional gauge. "

 

I don't think you have to have a CHT guage in an air-cooled engine, but if you have it, and its limits are stated in the RFM, then it must be working in order to comply with 91.9.

 

You cannot just placard any malfunctioning guage as INOP. As I've said, if the CHT guage isn't working you cannot comply with 91.9, therefore how can you justify placarding it INOP? Plus, an overheating engine would definitely "constitute a hazard to the aircraft", 91.213 (d)(4).

 

Now a Turn Coordinator is another story. I've placarded a couple of those in 22s. However, they're not required for VFR flight, nor are there any Limitations for that guage in the RFM, and I'm pretty certain not having one does not "constitute a hazard to the aircraft",...VFR!

 

 

Speaking of the CHT guage, why did they put (in 91.205) "...for each liquid-cooled engine"? Why make that distinction,...I mean air-cooled engines don't run very well overheated either? For that matter, why did they also put "...for each air-cooled engine" after Oil tempurature guage? Is the oil tempurature irrelevant in a "liquid-cooled" engine?

Edited by eagle5
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I don't think you have to have a CHT guage in an air-cooled engine, but if you have it, and its limits are stated in the RFM, then it must be working in order to comply with 91.9.

 

Makes sense to me……

 

However, as a younger CFI, I’d challenge students to back up what other instructors taught them. Simply put, if this type of question came up, I’d require the student to prove it…..

 

With regards to the R22, the CHT gauge is listed in the limitation section with a corresponding maximum temperature limitation… Furthermore, this section also includes the definition of what a redline means; “Color Code for Instrument Markings, Red – indicates operating limits” (If I remember correctly, the CHT gauge does in fact have a red line).

 

As eagle5 correctly pointed out, the requirements of FAR 91.9 apply.

While I could be wrong and often are, please let me know (that is, other than a DPE said….).

 

Lastly, I’m not arguing. While my posts seem somewhat pointed, it’s really just for fun….

Edited by Spike
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Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the distinction between the liquid and air cooled engines is because if a liquid cooled engine loses it's coolant the cylinder head temp will rise quickly, much more quickly than the oil temperature will. On an air-cooled engine, the oil takes the brunt of heat transfer and plays a larger role in cooling the engine, so an oil temp gauge is enough to suffice monitoring the overall temperature of the engine, including the cylinder heads. I will go even further in guessing that the distinction between why liquid cooled cooled engines need a CHT gauge but air cooled engines only need a oil temp gauge is probably because there are a lot of older aircraft out there that do not have CHT gauges, were not certified with them, and therefore cannot be held to that standard. Probably has nothing to do with helicopters, which is unfortunate, because we put so much more stress on our engines than airplanes do so CHT is much more important for us to monitor.

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In short, what MikeMV stated is a great route to take and it works.

 

Second, I agree in this case (R-22) the CHT is required as a indirect result of there being a limitation on CHT in the FAA Approved Limitations section of the POH. It is impossible to abide by this limitation with-out said gauge. Therefore, required.

Edited by JDHelicopterPilot
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nightsta1ker said it best. The oil is a far better way to judge internal engine temperature, which is much more important (in my opinion) than judging how hot the cylinder head is. The CHT is more of a fail safe type thing to me.

 

Spike: In response to your "take an FAA inspector out" comment... all I can say is "No, you!" haha. I don't care what the story is, if I have an FAA inspector sitting next to me, EVERYTHING on that bird will be operational (within reason, of course). If I ever come across one, I'll ask and make sure I let you know. I also plan on asking my instructor what he has to say about it. I'm curious what some of the people I know would have to say about it.

 

I bet if we asked two different inspectors their opinions on this debate we'd get two different answers... lol

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