WOFT aircraft selection?

[d10]

I don't know about transitioning to reserves but it's been pretty easy for 60 guys to transition into 64s on active duty as long as they're untracked.

[Jester2138]

How do transitions work in general? Why might a pilot my want one, when are they possible, how common are they, that sort of thing. I know nothing.

[av8rnik]

Thanks d10. I was thinking down the road a ways because there is a reserve unit about 20 minutes from where I live now that has 64's.

[I3uller]

How do transitions work in general? Why might a pilot my want one, when are they possible, how common are they, that sort of thing. I know nothing.

 

Also very interested in this. Say a student pilot is dead set on 58's and was highest on the OML but by chance no 58 slots came down and he was put on a 60, is there even a possibility to transition?

[Velocity173]

Also very interested in this. Say a student pilot is dead set on 58's and was highest on the OML but by chance no 58 slots came down and he was put on a 60, is there even a possibility to transition?

 

Only chance of transitioning to something else is if your airframe is retired, you switch to Guard, you go 160th, or you get picked up for fixedwing. Generally if you're active and get put in an airframe you didn't want, you're stuck. Never met anyone in 60s who who came from a different community. What's funny is in flight school you have all these people who were set on a particular aircraft but ended up low on the OML. Then all of a sudden the aircraft they were forced into became the best helicopter in the world! Every airframe is important though. You don't appreciate how important until you go to combat and see how much we rely on one another.

[I3uller]

Only chance of transitioning to something else is if your airframe is retired, you switch to Guard, you go 160th, or you get picked up for fixedwing. Generally if you're active and get put in an airframe you didn't want, you're stuck. Never met anyone in 60s who who came from a different community. What's funny is in flight school you have all these people who were set on a particular aircraft but ended up low on the OML. Then all of a sudden the aircraft they were forced into became the best helicopter in the world! Every airframe is important though. You don't appreciate how important until you go to combat and see how much we rely on one another.

 

I can imagine. I'm prior service and spent 14 months in Iraq as a cavalry scout and just seeing how much we depended on each other on the ground I'm sure it's even more involved in the air. Surprising though that the people so set on a certain airframe place so low on the OML, you'd think it would be more important for them to study? The 58 mission is exactly what I want though and not getting the opportunity to fly that mission is one of the most terrifying things to me about the whole process honestly. Granted I'd still be flying the greatest machines on the planet regardless and I would undoubtedly love the airframe I end up in but I have this special spot in my heart for the 58 and will do everything I can to get it.

[AW1985]

My class was the last of the fiscal year...only choice was a -58 and the rest were A/Ls. Sometimes it just depends on the needs of the Army. Studying only helps so much...I was third in line. It worked out in the end though...as most of the class got their number one assignment.

[Velocity173]

I can imagine. I'm prior service and spent 14 months in Iraq as a cavalry scout and just seeing how much we depended on each other on the ground I'm sure it's even more involved in the air. Surprising though that the people so set on a certain airframe place so low on the OML, you'd think it would be more important for them to study? The 58 mission is exactly what I want though and not getting the opportunity to fly that mission is one of the most terrifying things to me about the whole process honestly. Granted I'd still be flying the greatest machines on the planet regardless and I would undoubtedly love the airframe I end up in but I have this special spot in my heart for the 58 and will do everything I can to get it.

 

I can remember my class selection like it was yesterday. We were offered:

19 Black Hawks

13 Apaches

3 Chinooks

3 KWs

 

Only two people in my class actually picked Apaches. 11 Apache hash marks were left on the board so the bottom 11 were forced to take it. Fortunately I was able to be pick airframe and duty station. Still, even if I wasn't able to I would've been happy just to fly anything. The 60 is usually the popular pick but it varies somewhat. During the time I was at flight school The RAH-66 was in flight testing. You had a whole bunch of guys wanting 58s in hopes of transitioning to the Comanche. Didn't quite work out the way they planned.

 

Studying hard obviously increases your chance of getting the aircraft you want, but you gotta realize this is super competitive. For a lot of people it's their first exposure to aviation and it's being forced on them like a firehose. There was I guy in my class who was an honor grad in WOCS. He was a prior NCO with a decorated record so he thrived in WOCS. Once flight school started he ended up being in the middle of the class. Instruments kicked his butt! For some all the studying in the world doesn't matter if they just aren't grasping the concepts.

[I3uller]

I can remember my class selection like it was yesterday. We were offered:

19 Black Hawks

13 Apaches

3 Chinooks

3 KWs

 

Only two people in my class actually picked Apaches. 11 Apache hash marks were left on the board so the bottom 11 were forced to take it. Fortunately I was able to be pick airframe and duty station. Still, even if I wasn't able to I would've been happy just to fly anything. The 60 is usually the popular pick but it varies somewhat. During the time I was at flight school The RAH-66 was in flight testing. You had a whole bunch of guys wanting 58s in hopes of transitioning to the Comanche. Didn't quite work out the way they planned.

 

Studying hard obviously increases your chance of getting the aircraft you want, but you gotta realize this is super competitive. For a lot of people it's their first exposure to aviation and it's being forced on them like a firehose. There was I guy in my class who was an honor grad in WOCS. He was a prior NCO with a decorated record so he thrived in WOCS. Once flight school started he ended up being in the middle of the class. Instruments kicked his butt! For some all the studying in the world doesn't matter if they just aren't grasping the concepts.

 

I do have my rotary PPL so I'm hoping that will help me out but I am fully aware that there will be folks much better than I which is what really worries me. All this info definitely helps though and I think it's best for me to just do the best I can possibly do and see what happens. But first things first...get selected to even start the process. Thank you again for all the info, it is thoroughly appreciated.

 

Maybe I should start a smear campaign on the 58 so by the time I get there nobody will want it...?

[d10]

Only chance of transitioning to something else is if your airframe is retired, you switch to Guard, you go 160th, or you get picked up for fixedwing. Generally if you're active and get put in an airframe you didn't want, you're stuck. Never met anyone in 60s who who came from a different community.

 

I don't know anyone who moved into 60s from another airframe but I know a few guys who went the other way. If you're in an overstrength airframe and you want to move to an airframe that needs more pilots (like moving from a 60 to a 64 with the current numbers), all it takes is a 4187. I've only seen one denied, and he was a tracked W3 that the branch manager didn't want to give up.

[Velocity173]

 

 

I don't know anyone who moved into 60s from another airframe but I know a few guys who went the other way. If you're in an overstrength airframe and you want to move to an airframe that needs more pilots (like moving from a 60 to a 64 with the current numbers), all it takes is a 4187. I've only seen one denied, and he was a tracked W3 that the branch manager didn't want to give up.

 

Yeah I knew one TACOPS guy who tried to go Apaches but they shot down that request. We were overstrengthed but were short TACOPS people. Seems like them and MTPs were always getting the bonuses.

[Velocity173]

Oh yeah I know a couple guys who transitioned to LUHs as well so that's a possibility.

[Jester2138]

I know initial contracts are 6 years. Would it happen at the end of a commitment or just anytime it's approved?

[SBuzzkill]

Only chance of transitioning to something else is if your airframe is retired, you switch to Guard, you go 160th, or you get picked up for fixedwing. Generally if you're active and get put in an airframe you didn't want, you're stuck. Never met anyone in 60s who who came from a different community. What's funny is in flight school you have all these people who were set on a particular aircraft but ended up low on the OML. Then all of a sudden the aircraft they were forced into became the best helicopter in the world! Every airframe is important though. You don't appreciate how important until you go to combat and see how much we rely on one another.

 

I know of one person, our task force SP, who went to the 60M course from 64s.

 

 

As for studying and placing on the OML. You're talking about the difference between the bottom guy being an 88% and the top guy being a 96%. Study hard, fly your best, and keep in shape. I was number 1 on the OML until the final PT test when my weak score dropped me to 4th. It went the other way too, though, where some of the bottom guys got raised up by their strong PT scores. When the OML is that tight everything counts.

Edited January 9, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[Velocity173]

 

 

I know of one person, our task force SP, who went to the 60M course from 64s.

 

 

As for studying and placing on the OML. You're talking about the difference between the bottom guy being an 88% and the top guy being a 96%. Study hard, fly your best, and keep in shape. I was number 1 on the OML until the final PT test when my weak score dropped me to 4th. It went the other way too, though, where some of the bottom guys got raised up by their strong PT scores. When the OML is that tight everything counts.

 

Yeah I was second for picking aircraft and duty station. I was suppose to get an additional OML point for being flight lead in the AVCATT that would have cemented my second spot. One of the instructors got mad that my flight was undiciplined and we all got shotdown. He never gave me the point and I got bumped to fourth for graduation. He was an idiot who was in a pissy mood because he was stuck in WOBC and not at Lowe instructing. At any rate, since 2-4 were all honor grads I didn't bother reporting it and having it corrected. Of course all of our wings are the same right. Doesn't matter if you're first or last.

[Velocity173]

Of course Flight Concepts or whatever they're calling themselves these days will allow you to transition to another airframe. Just gotta go through about 30 days of crap to get in!

[av8rnik]

so at what point after WOCS do points start accumulating for OML and when do you do the PT test that counts?

[Velocity173]

I know initial contracts are 6 years. Would it happen at the end of a commitment or just anytime it's approved?

 

You could put in a 4187 at any point for a transition request. Whether or not it gets approved is needs of the Army. I don't think it really matters if you're at the end of your 6 yrs or not. I had friends who were approaching retirement and applied for fixedwing in hopes the Army would want to retain them in a fixedwing airframe. They were not accepted and decided on retirement. The Army doesn't really care about retaining people especially during a time where we're 200 % strength in some airframes.

[stearmann4]

As for switching airframes during your career, chances of doing it while on AD are very slim. The only caveats being if you switch status; i.e. go NG or Reserves, go to a VIP detachment with LUHs (Ft Irwin, West Point, etc), or the most changes seem to occur if you end up going back to Ft Rucker for a tour. Being on board the Mother Ship is where you'll hear all the early rumblings on which airframes are in need of numbers, which are over strength, etc. It's just more convenient because all the approval authorities are there in person, and it doesn't cost anyone any money to send you to school. That's the main reason you'll see guys in process Rucker as a plain-old 60 IP and come out 3 years later as the BGE SP, IP, IE, and MTP. They're available to take course short falls that don't get filled and it doesn't cost anyone a dime. I've had a couple of friends go to instruct at SERE or B Co. as 60 guys, and leave Rucker as 64 AQC grads. Of course there's always the fixed wing course which is currently in the trend of selecting junior warrants to balance out the historic top-heaviness of the community. I'll recommend now that if your OML and class standing allows you the opportunity to take a fixed-wing transition, you'll be a fool not to take advantage of it. You'll finish all the R/W syllabus first in whatever airframe happens to be available, then you'll go though Flight Safety's Fixed Wing Course. The ADSO is 5 years which is concurrent with the 6 years you'll already owe for being winged, which is a far better plan then being at 5 or 6 years, then getting the FW course and owing another 5 after completion. There's never a shortage of pilots wanting to fly airplanes in the Army, you'll always have the option of asking to go back to helicopters. When I went through the FW course we had 4 WO1s in class, one female was a recent grad of the 60 AQC, was C-12 rated, and on her way to the DeHavilland factory in Canada for her Dash 7 transition. So, as a WO1, she has her commercial, instrument, rotorcraft, multi-engine, BE-200,S-70, and DHC-7 type ratings in her wallet (purse?) and probably an ATP and CFII/MEI before her ADSO is up. Or, you can be at the end of your 6 years with maybe 1,500 hours of 60, 58 time or whatever and be competing with the 2,000 R-22 CFIs (no offense Lindsey:o) for the same entry level jobs A little bit of forward thinking will set you up nicely when you're old like me:o) Mike-

[electron_si]

Yeah I was second for picking aircraft and duty station. I was suppose to get an additional OML point for being flight lead in the AVCATT that would have cemented my second spot. One of the instructors got mad that my flight was undiciplined and we all got shotdown. He never gave me the point and I got bumped to fourth for graduation. He was an idiot who was in a pissy mood because he was stuck in WOBC and not at Lowe instructing. At any rate, since 2-4 were all honor grads I didn't bother reporting it and having it corrected. Of course all of our wings are the same right. Doesn't matter if you're first or last.

 

As the infamous Ricky Bobby once said

 

" If you AIN'T first, You're LAST"...Lol

[Velocity173]

As for switching airframes during your career, chances of doing it while on AD are very slim. The only caveats being if you switch status; i.e. go NG or Reserves, go to a VIP detachment with LUHs (Ft Irwin, West Point, etc), or the most changes seem to occur if you end up going back to Ft Rucker for a tour. Being on board the Mother Ship is where you'll hear all the early rumblings on which airframes are in need of numbers, which are over strength, etc. It's just more convenient because all the approval authorities are there in person, and it doesn't cost anyone any money to send you to school. That's the main reason you'll see guys in process Rucker as a plain-old 60 IP and come out 3 years later as the BGE SP, IP, IE, and MTP. They're available to take course short falls that don't get filled and it doesn't cost anyone a dime. I've had a couple of friends go to instruct at SERE or B Co. as 60 guys, and leave Rucker as 64 AQC grads. Of course there's always the fixed wing course which is currently in the trend of selecting junior warrants to balance out the historic top-heaviness of the community. I'll recommend now that if your OML and class standing allows you the opportunity to take a fixed-wing transition, you'll be a fool not to take advantage of it. You'll finish all the R/W syllabus first in whatever airframe happens to be available, then you'll go though Flight Safety's Fixed Wing Course. The ADSO is 5 years which is concurrent with the 6 years you'll already owe for being winged, which is a far better plan then being at 5 or 6 years, then getting the FW course and owing another 5 after completion. There's never a shortage of pilots wanting to fly airplanes in the Army, you'll always have the option of asking to go back to helicopters. When I went through the FW course we had 4 WO1s in class, one female was a recent grad of the 60 AQC, was C-12 rated, and on her way to the DeHavilland factory in Canada for her Dash 7 transition. So, as a WO1, she has her commercial, instrument, rotorcraft, multi-engine, BE-200,S-70, and DHC-7 type ratings in her wallet (purse?) and probably an ATP and CFII/MEI before her ADSO is up. Or, you can be at the end of your 6 years with maybe 1,500 hours of 60, 58 time or whatever and be competing with the 2,000 R-22 CFIs (no offense Lindsey:o) for the same entry level jobs A little bit of forward thinking will set you up nicely when you're old like me:o) Mike-

 

You're suppose to be trying to convince these youngsters to go helos:) all the above is true but what kind of a job do they get for their time in fixedwing? Soon they'll need 1,500 hrs TT to get a commuter job that pays 20 grand a year when they could roll right into a helo job making three times that. If they get C-12 rated sure they could get a BE-200 spot if ones available but you'd still be hard pressed to beat initial pay of helicopter. Even if you leave money out of the equation it really comes down to what type of flying you want to do. Fly an airplane that basically can already fly itself or a helicopter and the unique challenges involved. I have my fixedwing cert and own a plane. they're great for traveling but flying a helicopter is far more enjoyable and rewarding.

[I3uller]

Sort of touching on what Velocity said, the whole part about airplanes being boring to fly is a hurdle. I've had a good amount of time in fixed wing, as my dad was a career fixed wing pilot and now owns a Maule M7, but I just could never get interested in it. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like there are still good opportunities for jobs that will be fulfilling and pay decently for a prior Army aviator with a decent amount of hours without that Army aviator having to go the fixed wing route.

[Velocity173]

Sort of touching on what Velocity said, the whole part about airplanes being boring to fly is a hurdle. I've had a good amount of time in fixed wing, as my dad was a career fixed wing pilot and now owns a Maule M7, but I just could never get interested in it. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like there are still good opportunities for jobs that will be fulfilling and pay decently for a prior Army aviator with a decent amount of hours without that Army aviator having to go the fixed wing route.

 

Sure there are. I know guys making more than airline Captains doing contract overseas. We have openings in EMS everywhere. Stearmann is correct in that after 6 yrs you'd be lucky to have 1,500 hrs. I have friends who got about 2,000 hrs after 6 yrs but that was in the height of OIF/OEF. Unless another war breaks out, you all won't have that luxury. If someone's coming out with the magical 2,000 hrs after only 6 yrs these days, well then they logged way too heavy while they were in. Something you all will see first hand.

 

Don't get me wrong. Having a fixedwing rating makes you a better overall aviator and gives you more options for hiring. It's just that I can't stand the popular misconception in the Army that fixedwing pilots are better than rotorywing. Not true. I've never put in for the fixedwing packet (4187) but I can tell you it's a roll of the dice in who they pick. It's not like 160th or Flight Concepts. People that get picked up for fixedwing are just average aviators and the training that they do is no more difficult than what you all will do at Rucker. If you go Black Hawks or Chinooks you'll do instrument x-county like the C-12s do...just not quite as far.

 

Like I said, it's all about the flying you see yourself doing. If you believe flying circles around in an RC-12 or cruising at 250 kts at FL250 on autopilot is more enjoyable than zipping above the tree tops at 130 kts, then go for it. I just think you'll find the flexibility In helos is far more enjoyable than airplanes. That being said, I'm getting ready to get my multi-engine airplane rating soon...gotta leave my options open.

[electron_si]

Sort of touching on what Velocity said, the whole part about airplanes being boring to fly is a hurdle. I've had a good amount of time in fixed wing, as my dad was a career fixed wing pilot and now owns a Maule M7, but I just could never get interested in it. So correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like there are still good opportunities for jobs that will be fulfilling and pay decently for a prior Army aviator with a decent amount of hours without that Army aviator having to go the fixed wing route.

 

I agree with this. I LOVE flying helicopters but airplanes never really interested me that much, and still really dont. All these guys were begging for a C-12 transition when we were in the 60 course and I just never jumped on the boat. yeah the free ratings would be nice but other than that I really have no desire, at this point in my career to go fixed wing. I guess I'm one of the odd ones but I just never found planes appealing. Now I'll caveat that with fast movers. Flying an A-10 would be one of the coolest jobs in the world to me.

[DC8488]

Let me begin a caveat. I have little to add to this conversation except a recent conversation I had with a good friend who is a pilot for a private firm.

 

We spoke specifically about dual ratings. He related to me his peers who are dual rated are making around 25% higher salary than he is. Also, several companies in my locality are searching for dual rated pilots and from his perspective it would be worth my time to pursue it for that reason alone.

 

I am going to have to step back and look at what I want out of life and my vision post-military, but I plan on at least hitting 20 years, if not longer, in the Army. So, I would like to say thank you all for providing some valuable insight into this decision.